Series One, Episode Six: The Road to Gender and BAME Parity

Julia: Hello, my name is Julia Streets, and welcome to DiverCity™ Podcast.

Today we’re going to look at diversity and inclusion from the spectrum of 20 plus years of supporting gender and inclusion in financial services, and looking at young talent with a particular focus on how we address some of those shortcomings in ethnic representation.

My first guest is Vivienne Artz, Chief Privacy Officer at Thomson Reuters, who brings more than 20 years of experience in the legal and financial services industry. She’s a senior representative on many industry boards, and last year Vivienne took on the presidency of the Women in Banking and Finance. Welcome, thank you for joining us.

My second guest today is Dr. Miranda Brawn. Equally, 20 plus years in investment banking and legal, and she was one of the first women of colour on the trading floors in the 1990’s. She is the Director of Legal and Transaction Services at Daiwa Capital, and also the founder and CEO of the Miranda Brawn Diversity Leadership Foundation, blazing the way for the next generation and supporting diversity, both in financial services and the legal profession. Thank you for joining us.

As is always the way on DiverCity™ Podcast, we permit each of our guests a minute to talk about some of the issues and initiatives that you’re working on at the moment. Vivienne, let me start with you. What are you up to at the moment?

Vivienne: Thank you very much Julia. Well obviously I have my day job as Chief Privacy Officer at Thomson Reuters, which is most definitely a full-time job. But no job is full unless you can also fulfill your passion, and my passion is gender diversity.

So I am the new President for Women in Banking and Finance. And Women in Banking and Finance, or WIBF as we like to call it for short, is uniquely a not for profit membership organisation with both corporate and individual members. I say uniquely, because we also have branches in Bristol, London, Edinburgh, Glasgow, and Birmingham, so we have reach all over the UK, reflecting our membership.

We’ve been around for a while, 1980 is when we were founded. We’re run by members, for members, aiming to foster our members’ ambitious spirit with networking events, we do development programs, and also leadership opportunities. So we’re very much a network for our members throughout their career, from graduate straight through to boardroom.

Julia: Fantastic, that’s great. And Miranda, again, another exceptionally busy woman, what are you up to these days?

Miranda: I’m up to a lot. So my day job, as you’ve mentioned, is working for Daiwa Capital Markets, and I’m their Director of Legal and Transaction Management, which is why I am responsible for derivatives and regulations across Europe.

But outside of my day job, and I get a lot of support from Daiwa, I’m the Founder and Director for the Miranda Brawn Diversity Leadership Foundation. And that’s helping to close the diversity gap with the next generation by empowering them to succeed and work on the type of workplace that they would like to see in the future.

The work that we do includes mentoring, funding, work experience, and diversity lectures. We made UK history last year by launching the first race diversity lecture aimed at school children aged from 14 to 21 years old, and we won an award from the Prime Minister, so it’s been a wonderful start.

We also have a mentoring program, which includes top leaders helping our next generation of black, asian and minority ethnic leaders, or future leaders, across the UK.

Julia: Wonderful. I’ve really been looking forward to this episode. What I love is that we’re looking at it through two lenses. One of them is Women in Banking and Finance, was this their first award scheme in the UK, if we go back 21 years now?

Vivienne: 21 years, I think it is actually the first award scheme, and it was generated by women who had come together through WIBF, and it was finally the opportunity to recognise and celebrate the achievements of women in the city.

There have been so few women, there are many more now than there were in the past, but it was about getting that recognition, and actually as that community, celebrating the amazing achievements of those women, and recognising that they are indeed role models and an inspiration for other women who are forging their way in the city. So it’s fantastic that we’re coming up to 21 years, we’re finally legal!

Julia: Finally legal, I love that – said the lawyers around the table!

In that 21 year journey, do you think that the world has changed? Clearly, shining a spotlight, and encouraging, and supporting people to come forward to the awards … I’d love to hear your thoughts on whether the world has shifted?

Vivienne: I think the world has shifted. I think there’s been a huge amount of activity. We’re seeing diversity networks as a norm within organisations. We’re seeing a lot of diversity programs within organisations. Much better policies around maternity, paternity, flexible working, returnships, and so on and so forth. But I think everyone would acknowledge, honestly, that we are not making the progress that we need to.

So there’s been profile, there’s been budget, there’s been enthusiasm, there’s been senior level support. The needle has moved, but it hasn’t moved far enough. And I think a lot of firms are now looking internally and saying, “Well, what do we need to do to actually genuinely move the needle?” The rate of change is such that it’s going to be decades before we reach gender parity, particularly at the senior levels.

I think it’s really important to recognise the excellent work that has been done to celebrate the role models that we have. I mean one thing I’d say about WIBF, is our Champion for Women Award has been won by men as well as women. So we recognise all those champions for gender parity, but I think there’s still a huge amount to do.

I think we’re at the crest of the wave, I’m very excited at the moment. I know we have a lot to do, but the excitement comes from the fact that I think we are at an inflection point in history. We are at an inflection point because we have gender pay gap reporting for the first time, not only in the UK but also now for the EU – a genuine progress in terms of gender pay gap there, certainly the initiative.

We also have the 100 year anniversary of women getting the vote. So it’s recognising one of the most fundamental elements of parity, which is having a voice. And then I think the Women in Finance Charter, which has been sponsored by HMT, has been hugely powerful in terms of calling firms to genuine action. So moving from strategy and ambition to action and accountability, and I’m thinking that this is where we’re really going to be seeing the change.

Julia: And I think if we were to look at this from the other end of the spectrum, of young people coming into the industry…….in fact, only recently I was at one of the largest financial institutions telling the room of people that, “by the way, young talent doesn’t want to work for people who look like you.” It didn’t go down terribly well, it has to be said! Because actually the financial industry has a challenge. As you look at young executives who come through, and are seeing the progress that’s being made with women at the top as well, Miranda, I’m really keen to hear from your perspective, when you’re working with these young execs, these young leaders of tomorrow. What are the things that they’re thinking about, and what are they looking for?

Miranda: When I speak to the young executives, for example, I spoke on a panel with Trevor Phillips and a lot of key senior leaders from a black, asian, minority ethnic background, and it was predominantly to talk to their multicultural networking group. But I actually invited a few of my mentees who are the next generation of young executives.

When I speak to young executives as well, they just want the opportunity, and that’s why I launched the foundation because there seems to be a gap in terms of how do they get the opportunities to get the work experience, how do they get the opportunities for when they apply for a particular position, that they actually get that job.

And the young executives from a black, asian, minority ethnic background who I mentor, they go through so many application processes, on a few occasions they will get an interview, but they don’t get the job. And so, one of the things that I say to them is, you’ve got to keep pushing. You’ve got to be persistent.

For example, I started investment banking when I was 18, after my A levels. I ended up doing my degree and qualifying in the evenings, but I wanted to be a sales trader and it took me 10 years, so I share that. When I mentor, and I coach as well, I open up my address book to networking events, I stress to them that you’ve got to keep going, you’ve got to be persistent.

But as senior leader in the industry and a woman of colour, I find a lot of the time you’ve got to do your day job and then also, outside of your day job, you’ve got to be this pioneer for diversity. And I think one of the key things that we really need, is that we need other leaders who aren’t from a minority background to actually help to speak up. And we’re starting to see that now, those type of initiatives are changing.

But just going back to what improvement has been made, there has been some improvement, there has been some progress since the 1990’s. I remember being the only person of colour for many, many years. And I think employers are taking those positive steps. One of the key things is that they’re actually engaging comprehensive schools and colleges, they’re offering that work experience, they’re offering employment opportunities for young people who choose not to go to university.

There are lots of apprenticeships schemes as well at the moment, which I think is a wonderful avenue for those who don’t come from your typical private school. And even if you have gone to a private school, it’s another avenue in terms of how you can enter the professional world.

I think all of this will help the young people to explore the workplace culture before they actually start work, and making them more adaptable in the future. It also helps the employees as well though, to experience the untapped potential of people from outside the usual elite talent pools.

There are volunteering and mentoring days as well. I’ve worked for the top tier investment banks, and the big ones, they’re all doing their own initiatives. And I think all of these are really great initiatives, especially when you look at the City of London and the Square Mile, and the neighboring Boroughs, like Hackney. And so when you look at the schools in Hackney, it’s going to be predominantly children from a black, asian or minority ethnic background. So that’s another way that organisations, and investment banks, and financial services organisations, and non-financial services organisations, are working with the next generation.

The onus shouldn’t just be on leaders like myself who are active, it shouldn’t just be on the next generation. They’re dying for mentoring, they’re dying for work experience and networking opportunities, but I think we need to have some more collaborative engagement with the senior leaders, and also with middle management as well, within the organisations to help close this race diversity gap.

Julia: And it’s really interesting you pick up on that, because in a lot of the podcasts, the whole question of mentoring comes up. We’ve talked about reverse mentoring where a lot of the institutions can listen to the opinions of the young execs coming through who work very differently. I don’t want to brand them all as millennials, because we’re seeing flavours of how you define the young workforce coming through.

There are two messages that are coming through loud and clear. One of them is, how do you get through that sticky middle of management, who have always done business in a certain way? And how do you engage them in looking elsewhere for their talent, thinking very differently about what diversity and inclusion looks like?

And not being afraid to tackle it, and it does take a degree of bravery. We talked on our first podcast about the use of language around race, and we had the wonderful Heather Melville on, saying we should just own the language … If somebody’s black, you call them black. And people go, “Oh, I don’t want to get into that debate around race, because it’s very awkward.” And helping people begin to welcome the discussion, welcome the language, and welcome the individuals into their organisation.

And certainly on the question of gender, is the mentoring of male senior execs for young female execs coming through the ranks. And I really support this whole, be mentored by somebody who’s not like you, then you can see the world through different lenses almost.

Are we seeing that happen, or is that just Utopia?

Miranda: It’s slowly happening. When I was at a very big US investment bank over 10 years ago now, showing my age, I approached our only female black MD across Europe, and this was when I wanted to be a sales trader on the trading floor. Her advice to me was, “I’m not on the trading floor…”, and at the time there were no people of colour on the trading floor in a revenue generating role. And her advice was, “You need to find a white male mentor.” And so I found four!

Julia: Not to be outdone, I’m going to go and find four!

Miranda: And that’s the thing with a mentor, you cannot rely on just one mentor. Each mentor has different skillsets. Within one year of having four mentors, I found myself on the trading floor in a sales role.

So I think you can really gain a lot. And it’s also not just mentors, but having coaches as well. And I think lots of these organisations, one of the things that I did, was when I was chair of a black networking group at a top tier investment bank, a US investment bank, I launched a mentoring program, I launched a professional development program to help with the progression of the black employees there.

But for me, it was a case of I think we need to go beyond the mentoring now, I think reserve mentoring is really important. I think it’s really important to have mentors that don’t look like you. It’s important to have a diverse platform of mentors. When I give talks, and when I gave a recent keynote address, I actually said to the next generation that you need to have your own board of advisors. You need to have your own board of mentors who potentially look very different.

If you have mentors that look like you, that have gone through the same issues like you, you’re not really beating this whole diversity issue that we’re all facing at the moment.

Julia: Absolutely. Vivienne?

Vivienne: It’s an interesting thing that you mention there, just in terms of the revenue generating role, and I think this is perhaps where a lot of firms have struggled, is that they’re able to achieve greater levels of diversity, whether gender or ethnicity or otherwise, in the non-revenue generating roles. And I think the real key is focusing on the revenue generating roles, and that will help statistics like the gender pay gap. Because even if you’ve got 50/50, if the top paying jobs, which are the revenue generating jobs, are going to one segment, then it’s going to distort the statistics and it creates that inequality all over again.

So I think we have to be much more targeted and focused around where does the effort need to be put in, in order to generate real results.

Julia: And I think that’s very exciting, because if you look at the world of B2C, there’s a common language around your retail customers – you need to reflect what they look like…..[also] In the world of banking, and even in the world of SMEs, serving SME markets.     I think what’s really exciting is when you look at the B2B world, …..which is as we’ve got these diversity and inclusion initiatives happening across the board, is that the rising tide lifts all ships…., do you reflect what your customers look like? And if you’re doing it on a B2B basis, ….as you see greater diversity and inclusion improve in one institution that you’re selling to….because it’s all about business and commercial appetite… that hopefully you’ll get firms that are selling to them, thinking about, “well actually are we representative as well?”

Are you seeing any of that kind of discussion happening within firms at all?

Vivienne: I think the B2C model is much, much further ahead. It just makes so much sense when you look at the purse power of the population, and it actually tends to be much higher. I think it’s a lot more challenging in the B2B world, but I’m seeing movement there as well.

So for example, with the Women in Finance Charter, it has now become a short list of those firms who haven’t signed up, who haven’t committed. Now it is those firms that are in the spotlight rather than the ones who actually have committed. And that sort of reversal of publicity I think works really well and engenders those other firms to really push forward and to embrace the change and actually move forward. So that’s that rising tide you referred to.

Julia: Yes. Miranda, do you have any thoughts on that?

Miranda: Yeah, I think just overall in terms of what you said, we also need to focus on the race pay gap, and this is something that I speak about a lot. I’m in the news and in various media sources as well, talking about this. And it’s great that we’re focusing on the gender, and there’s LGBT, and there’s age, but when you look at statistics and research, race is all the way down the bottom.

When you look at various research, you’ve got gender diversity. There’s something called the Stuart Spencer Index Report that was out a few years ago, and that actually stated that race diversity is nearly 20 years behind gender diversity in terms of the levels.

So we need to focus a lot more on how do we get more ethnic minorities in the door? How do we get more women in the door as well, because it all stems from school? I go to lots of schools, and I give lots of talks, not only inspirational talks and sharing my career journey to let them see someone who is a success doing particular occupations that they might aspire to achieve, but also to talk to them about the diversity issues.

I went to a primary school earlier on this year, and I was talking to 4 to 10 year olds, and I asked them the question, “How many people in the room think the role of a CEO is a man’s job?” And the majority of the children aged between 4 to 10, put their hands up. When I asked about the role of a judge, the same statistics.

So we really need to start earlier on at the school ages, in order for them to have the aspirations, in order for them to believe that they can get these top jobs. Then once they’re in the jobs, how do we get them to be promoted? This all comes down to the unconscious, by training, online, how do we engage the managers?

So a lot of the time we’ll get the messages from the CEO, and from the board, who will publicly announce that they are supporting diversity. And then somehow, sometimes, when you trickle it down to the middle management and to the lower management, it gets missed. So I think we’ve got to make sure that there’s training, there’s hiring training as well; it’s not just relying upon the HR department, but it’s something that should be discussed every single day.

I really think this should be part of your performance appraisal. It should be part of your objectives. We’re talking about targets as well, where various organisations are also setting targets in terms of gender. And there is something recent, I think it was the FCA, they’ve actually published some statistics and also some research, where they want to increase their gender by 50% in terms of senior leadership by 2025.

Now all these targets that are being set by these organisations, it’s all focused on gender. We really need to try to embrace race diversity as well, because it makes business sense. We all know it makes business sense as well now, which I think is one of the main reasons why we have so many organisations and so many networks focused on diversity. But when we look at the statistics, there still isn’t much progress. So what can the middle managers be doing, and what can the management be doing in order to help close this gap?

Julia: But I wonder though if there’s something we can learn from … and again, that’s why this is a such a great conversation because we’re looking at both ends of the spectrum with the gender debate over 21 years, versus the young execs coming through, and particularly around race, which is being in many respects, we could argue, slightly sidelined and needs to take prominence.

Is there anything we can learn from progress on the gender side that we could bring to light on the gender debate? Vivienne, any thoughts on that?

Vivienne: I think there’s a lot we can learn, but a lot of it is around looking at what actually drives the current behaviours. And in the financial services sector, it’s about talent and it’s about profit. I think the debate has been won in terms of diversity, a diverse company is a more profitable company, so it’s a bit of a no-brainer.

And I think the talent issue is now coming to bare post financial crisis, where the talent is drying up, both coming in but also retaining the talent within the firms. I think that’s going to drive firms to make the necessary changes. That is a gender issue, but it’s going to help in the BAME discussion as well, because it is about diversity, and it is about talent – how do you attract it, how do you retain it, and how do you then promote it? Because without that pipeline, we’re never going to actually deal with the big issue, which is at the top.

We’d spoken earlier about role models, and I think the role models are so very important. I think I’m more and more conscious these days that given generational differences, I think it would be quite challenging to be a role model for a different generation, a much younger generation, perhaps one that is one or two generations behind you. Because my experiences were very different from what their experiencing now in terms of their workplace.

But if you can’t find a role model, be a role model. And I think that’s something we should all carry with us. Just because you’re young, and just because you’re new, doesn’t mean that you can’t be that role model, and it’s the reverse mentoring I think where you can achieve that in quite a subtle way.

Julia: And I think we’re at an interesting point with financial services particularly, where we need a lot of people with very specific skills, skillsets that didn’t necessarily exist even five years ago. And I’m thinking particularly around data scientists, etc. And if you go out into the universities, the schools and the apprenticeships, etc., this is a great opportunity for people to be looking and hiring very differently.

I was standing in front of a ‘suited’ group a little earlier this year, talking about this, and saying, “the people you’re looking for will mostly be wearing hoodies.” So this is just a beautiful example of how you need to mentally shift your recruitment policies.

And I think that’s an interesting opportunity to be thinking about the BAME community and bringing them in. Because actually the world of trading, I do a lot around sales trading and trading in foreign exchange and fixed income, etc., and I say to people, “Now where do you hire?” And they say, “Well, we always hire people from sports clubs at universities, because we find they’re very, very competitive.”

And the first thing I always say to them is, “What, are you telling me there are no highly competitive BAME sports people at university? Because that’s just ridiculous?” And people are saying, “Yes, actually you’re right, we need to think differently, we need to behave differently and we need to hire in different places.”

This is all very easy to say. Do you think we’ll see some evidence of shifting that mindset?

Miranda: I hope so. I think it goes back to what I said a bit earlier on, where there’s lot of talk and one of the things that I say, is that we need more action now. There’s lots of talk, there’s lots of wonderful campaigns, there’s lots of corporates … Every night of the week you can go to a diversity event. I did lots of talks during Black History Month 2017, and when I spoke at Westminster, one of the key things that I said was that when we have these diversity events, it’s the same speakers that are just going around, all these other corporates, sharing the same ideas, the same viewpoints, and talking to the same audience who already get it.

And if we’re just talking to each other, and it’s just the same people coming to these events, progress is going to be slow. And one of the things I say is, we need more action and less talk, or more talk and more action. We need to engage our white male counterparts, because they are the ones who are in these positions, who are in the boardroom, who are in senior management. The majority of the time, they are the ones who hold this role.

Julia: Vivienne?

Vivienne: Well to pick up on your point, I agree. It’s time for action and no longer for words. And I think the other side of action is accountability. And I’m a great proponent of the Women in Finance Charter, and what’s fascinating there is that it promotes action, and it also sets out an accountability mechanism that will work.

Julia: So let’s take a pause there and hand over to our colleagues, Cynthia Akinsanya and Robert Pinto-Fernandes. What have you found in the industry?

Robert: A 2017 article published by the executive search company Spencer Stuart, titled Profile of the Fortune 500 Chief Financial Officers, Today and in the Future, looked at the route up to CFO level and the diversity of current CFO’s.

Cynthia: Looking at the path to CFO positions, as of 2016, CFO’s are more likely to be promoted from within than they were 10 years ago. 69% of Fortune 500 CFO’s in 2016 were internal successors. From 2006 to 2016, 61% of the 805 CFO transitions went to internal candidates.

Robert: And in terms of demographics and diversity, women now represent less than 13% of Fortune 500 CFO’s. While this is still low, it represents a meaningful increase in female representation since 2006, when only 7% of CFO’s were women.

Cynthia: Representation of ethnically diverse CFO’s has doubled since 2006 to 6%. Progress may accelerate in the future, as many organisations are focusing on building more diverse teams and prioritising female and ethnically diverse candidates.

Julia: So this been a really interesting discussion, and I think there’s a natural intersection that’s worth exploring, which is around women of colour in financial services. So Miranda, 20 years in investment banking and sales trading, and the world of capital markets-

Miranda: And legal.

Julia: And legal, absolutely. What observations could you draw and where do you think we need some focus there?

Miranda: I think the focus needs to be on getting more women, more people of colour, more LGBT, age, disability, social background, and so on, getting them all the way up the ranks so that they fulfil their full potential. We need to look at the boardroom as well. So how do we increase the boardroom?

But I just want to share with you a new study that has been produced by Leanin.org and also McKinsey and Co. Now this is based on men and women in the workplace in North America, but I think we could apply it here in the UK as well. This is with reference to corporate ambition. When they asked women of colour what were their views on the workplace, and when they looked at statistics as well, women of colour are far more likely than white women to say that they aspire to a top executive role, but they get little help. The survey took place with men and women, and it found that black, Latina, and Asian women still hold only 3% of C-Suite roles, compared to a 16.7% of entry level roles.

Now black women are more likely to say that they do not have interactions with their top bosses, who are more likely to be white men, and only 23% of managers have helped them navigate the organisational politics, compared with 36% of white women, and this is according to the data. And this has remained largely unchanged within the last three years.

So in conclusion to that, I would say that in terms of what I’m seeing within the workplace, within the UK workforce, the study is true. We don’t see enough women of colour in senior positions, and I think some managers probably don’t realise that minority women are actually facing hurdles. So we need to encourage more conversation within the workplace to actually listen to our next generation, listen to our existing future leaders who do come from a black, asian, minority ethnic background, and also listen to women. What are the challenges and barriers that they’re facing, so that senior management can address that?

Julia: And I think if you look at Women in Banking and Finance, and I know that one of your awards looks at champions of women, and in the last few years … I may not have this quite right, but there have been a number of men who have come forward as champions as well.

But to this point about women of colour coming through the ranks as well, what’s been your experience from Women in Banking and Finance?

Vivienne: Well one of the things about Women in Banking and Finance, being a member led organisation, is we give our members the opportunity to take on those leadership positions. And I’m very proud to say that we have had three outstanding Presidents of Women in Banking and Finance who have been women of colour. So we reflect our membership and help our members to achieve those leadership positions so that they can further their careers and be successful. So I think that we are very much on the same page Miranda.

Julia: And great role models as well. I’ve had the privilege of meeting quite a few of them and they are extraordinary role models.

I know that you are two of the busiest women in the city, and I am immensely grateful. Thank you both very much for joining us. Miranda and Vivienne, thank you.

And so this draws to the end the first series of DiverCity™ Podcast. And I’d like to take a moment to thank a number of people. First of all to all our guests, for their time to offer their insights and we really appreciate lots of ideas from our listeners as well, for recommendations for future guests, do please let us know.

Also to you, our ever growing community of followers and listeners, thank you for taking an interest and for all your comments.

Please follow us on Twitter @DiverCityPod and sign up for our newsletter at DiverCityPodcast.com. We’d also love it if you could give us a rating or a review on iTunes, it really does help promote the show.

We’ll be back in January 2018 and look forward to further debate about diversity and inclusion in the financial services. Thank you for listening.