In this episode, host Julia Streets is joined by Sophie Creese, Founder of MotherBoard, and Eleanor Mills, Editor in Chief of noon.org.uk. They explore the current landscape of women at work; the ages and stages of women in the workforce: from mothers to ‘Queenagers’, which now includes five generations. They discuss opportunities for women in midlife, the wasted economic and skills potential, the (not so) ‘great break up’ and the reality of gendered ageism. They discuss policies and best practice around reproductive health for employees, particularly during pregnancy, the requirements for returning mothers and recognises the midlife pinch facing women before they emerge into the ‘sunny uplands’ post-menopause.
Sophie is the Founder of MotherBoard, a Business Charter, Community and Event Series driving tangible change for mums working in the tech industry. MotherBoard is on a mission to transform the industry to be more inclusive of mothers by tackling stigmas and supporting employers who want to create real change. As part of the MotherBoard Movement to transform the workplace for women, Sophie Co-Founded HeyFlow in early 2023. HeyFlow is an insight-driven data surveying and L&D tool that empowers businesses to build a truly inclusive company by understanding the impact of female reproductive health in the workplace. HeyFlow is an impact based business model that will contribute 5% of its annual profits to contribute towards the entry-level education funding of UK female refugees to access professional career opportunities.
Eleanor Mills is a journalist, diversity campaigner and entrepreneur. She is the Founder and Editor in Chief of noon.org.uk a new platform for women in midlife - she calls them Queenagers – which is dedicated to challenging gendered ageism, changing the cultural narrative about the later stages of women’s lives and helping brands connect with this underserved but lucrative cohort. Eleanor was Chair of Women in Journalism UK from 2014-2021 and worked as a senior executive for 23 years at The Sunday Times, as its Editorial Director, award-winning Editor of The Sunday Times Magazine, the paper’s main interviewer, a columnist and a prize-winning Feature Writer. She appears regularly on TV and radio, writes broadly across UK newspaper titles and magazines and advises global corporations and gives keynotes on diversity, particularly on retaining senior women. Her publications include Cupcakes and Kalashnikovs: 100 Years of the Best Journalism by women and a book about Queenagers which will be published in 2024.
Series Fifteen, Episode Seven Transcript
Julia: Hello, my name is Julia Streets and welcome to DiverCity Podcast talking about equity, inclusion, and diversity in financial services. On the podcast, we seek to shine a light on positive progress to call out areas requiring further focus and offer lots of ideas to help drive change. Before we get started today, I just want to take a moment to thank our friends at CityAm. They’ve given DiverCity Podcast, a new home at Impact AM their pages dedicated to E S G impact in investment DE&I and more. And we really appreciate that they publish and promote both our episodes and our supporting blog series so their readers can stay right on top of the very latest diversity, equity, and inclusion debate. So thank you to CityAM
I’ve been really looking forward to this episode because I’m joined by two wonderful guests, Sophie Creese and Eleanor Mills. Sophie Creese is the founder of MotherBoard, a business charter community and event series driving tangible change for mums working in the tech industry. MotherBoard is on a mission to transform the industry to become more inclusive of mothers by tackling stigmas and supporting employers. As part of her movement to transform the workplace for women, she co-founded a business called HeyFlow Early 2023.
HeyFlow is an insight driven data surveying and learning development tool, and it’s designed to empower businesses to build truly inclusive companies by understanding the impact of female reproductive health in the workplace. One other comment I would make is that she also, in her business model for HeyFlow, contributes 5% of annual profits to contribute towards the entry level education funding of UK female refugees. It’s all about accessing professional career opportunities. Sophie, it’s wonderful to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being with us.
Sophie: Thanks for having me.
Julia: Joining Sophie today is Eleanor Mills. She’s a journalist, diversity campaigner and entrepreneur. She is the founder and editor-in-chief of noon.org.uk, a new platform for women in midlife. She calls them ‘Queenagers’, which is dedicated to challenging gendered ageism, changing the cultural narrative about the later stages of women’s lives, and helping brands to connect with this underserved but lucrative cohort. She’s also been a former chair of women in UK journalism and for 23 years she worked as a senior executive at the Sunday Times as its Editorial Director and as an award-winning editor of the Sunday Times Magazine. She was an interviewer, a columnist, and a prize-winning feature writer. She appears regularly on TV and radio and her publications include cupcakes and Kalashnikovs, 100 Years of the Best Journalism by Women. And a book about Queenagers is due to be published in 2024. A couple of other things I would add, she’s on the steering committee of the Global 30% Club and she’s also a special advisor to the Centre of Ageing Better, Eleanor It’s wonderful to have you on the show. Thanks for being with us.
Eleanor: Thanks very much for having me.
Julia: I’m so curious. I mean, those introductions are phenomenal, but I’m really keen to hear from both of you. Sophie, I’m coming to you first of all, what are you focused on right now?
Sophie: I’ve been focusing on the motherhood space for the last few years, specifically within the tech industry. I think we’ve broadly moved on from why it’s important to have more women in the tech industry, women within leadership, women within boardrooms. But the problem for many is how we do this. Businesses want to have quick fixes because of the pressure to close their gender pay gap and create more balanced teams. However, there’s no quick fix here, we can’t just scratch the surface and think the job is done. So I’m currently delving deep into the issues women are facing at work and how this is affecting retaining women in the workplace. I believe the entire span of a women’s working career is affected by female reproductive health and the lack of understanding around this whether that’s debilitating period pain, pregnancy, return to work, menopause, all of this is affecting retaining women in the workplace.
And it largely comes down to education and understanding from leaders. I’m currently working on supporting businesses on how to gather real insight into their female workforce so that we can action this change. I’m also supporting businesses who are introducing specific reproductive health policies such as period policies and understanding how these are implemented in the workplace in reality, to ensure they are effective, not just another policy that achieves little.
Julia: Fabulous. And, you know, one of the episodes we’ve also produced is thinking about how the organisational design of spaces that very much flows into everything you were saying there about understanding the reproductive journey of women as well as the broader inclusivity into disability. That’s another dynamic to it as well. Hearing your work around the pay gap as well, that’s something we’re very, very focused on at DiverCity Podcast in future episodes as well. Looking forward to your thoughts, we will certainly unpick some of that. Eleanor, can I come to you as well? I’d love to hear what you are particularly focused on right now.
Eleanor: I have been campaigning in this space about how we get more women particularly to the top of business. The theme for this year’s International Women’s Day was embracing equity. I have to say it’s brilliant what Sophie’s doing, but I find it slightly depressing. I’m 52, I had two children, my oldest is 20. While working as a senior executive in the British media, it feels depressing to me that two decades on so much of that remains unfixed. My present focus is on the intersectionality of where gender meets age. The whole business of the ageing workforce is the huge bit of DEI. In fact, it is not even just DEI should be on every C-Suites agenda because by 2025 over half the workforce will be over 50.
And very few companies are thinking about what that means to them, both in terms of the opportunities, huge numbers of innovation. There’s a huge market out there of people who are really massively underserved at the moment. I think that there’s an interesting opportunity for businesses who get this right. We’re also sitting on intergenerational workforces where we’ve often got five different generations all working alongside each other, which we’ve never had before. And so my piece of that pie is both looking at that demographic kind of quake, which is coming our way and how businesses can prepare themselves for that. And I’m very interested in what I call “Queenagers’ women, 45 to 65. We are the first generation of women who have worked all the way through for who working has been a norm whose careers were generally not derailed by motherhood.
It was tough, but a lot of us are kept on working all the way through. And that’s there in the 2019 census. Women over 40 start earning more money than women under 40 for the first time ever. So there have never been women like today’s current Queenagers hitting this phase before. And there’ve never been women who have worked all the way through. But what’s interesting is that, that at the top of companies, the Queenager peak is not happening as fast as it should. I’m on the steering committee for 30% Club. We’re now getting to 40% of women on boards, but far too many of those are non-exec directors. Actually when we are looking at the Steer Co, the really important roles, the executive roles, we’ve hands on leaders, it’s only about 16% women, maybe 20%, but it’s a lot less. And we’ve got a real problem with an exodus of women of this age out of the corporate world.
New McKinsey Lean-in research showed that for every woman who was being made a Director, two were leaving this research called The Great Breakup. That’s reflected in a big piece of research that we did at noon.org uk with Accenture, which shows that women of this trade who should be moving into those leadership roles are actually increasingly disenchanted with companies and are haemorrhaging from the workforce. And we’re never gonna get to gender equality at the top if all those women who’ve made it thus far are then falling out. So we’ve got some really interesting data on how firms can retain those senior female executives, but I’m afraid the slightly depressing users that they are not really looking at that, that it’s not a piece of the jigsaw puzzle which is being really focused upon which it should be, because they are this absolutely key part of the talent pipeline.
And they also act as a spearhead, as a canary in the coal mine for diversity more broadly within companies. What we also see is that women are leaving companies who talk the talk on DEI but don’t walk the walk the companies where they really mean it. And that flexibility is 16times more important to Queenagers in the workplace than pure status. But status is the way that senior executives are rewarded. So there’s a real discrepancy between what senior women want and what senior women are getting. And then when you play into that, the gendered ageism and the discrimination that they face and stuff around menopause and all of those kinds of things and the fact that the top of business is still very much a boys club, we are not getting the progress of senior women into leadership positions that we should be.
Aligned to that, there’s a huge consumer opportunity with these women because they’re also behind over 90% of all household consumer spending decisions, and yet they feel massively underrepresented by brands. Again, our research really points that up. So there’s a huge hole here and there’s very few bits of the marketeers map, which are generally unexplored territory.
When I interviewed Sheryl Sandberg last year who was at Meta and who founded Lean In, she said to me that she thought that these women were the most lucrative and underserved cohort in the whole of the, you know, the kind of marketing world. So I think that there’s a real opportunity there. And cause of the gender ageism in our society, too many companies and brands aren’t thinking about it.
Julia: As I sit and listen to those opening remarks, I mean it strikes me there are four or five really key dynamics that come from that. One of them is about the demographic reality of shifting demographics within the organisation society. One of them is about the purchasing power and the economic power and contribution that this cohort can make. The third is about the enlightened leadership at the very, very top in order to inspire that pipeline and retain that pipeline. And then the other is also just, around the inspiration that this can flow into the next generation is another big thought that comes to mind. But then the last piece being ready to think about, we’ve never had this before, you know, actually there’s talking about this, this, this, this generation that is bringing huge contribution.
I’m concerned by this, this remark about the departure, the leaving if you like. Sophie, I wonder if I could bring you in here because I’d love to spend a bit of time with you thinking about, you know I’ve heard that rumours about a 50% drop off of women when they reach childbearing age, particularly in the world of technology as well. And your thoughts about how do we prevent this and how do we help returning mothers stay in organisations to be really inspired to the pathway that Eleanor and is also describing as having enormous potential for them?
Sophie: It’s a particularly shocking stat, isn’t it? 50% of women leaving the tech industry by the time they’re 35. And through my work in this space in motherhood it is a direct impact of motherhood and not having an inclusive return to work, tech is particularly poor in this area. In terms of takeaways, what we can do, it’s essential that employers understand their workforce better. and even with the best intentions, often businesses are assuming what their returning mothers need without actually speaking to them directly first. For example, whether that’s assuming that a mother returning to work will want to not pursue that next promotion, or that they will just slip back into work just fine they won’t need check-ins because for example, they’re a director or of a senior level.
Businesses need to understand everyone’s individual needs and take the time to plan accordingly. Beyond that, we need to make sure communication is clear whilst women are off on maternity leave. Company updates need to be shared, returners need to feel valued in tech, specifically returners in technical roles need to be upskilled and have a clear return to work plan. naturally there is going to be a gap if somebody’s been offered a year with their coding abilities, etc, is a very quick fix. and unfortunately we’re seeing that that is not being done. I’ve heard of countless mothers that have returned to work with no meetings in their diaries, no check-ins. All the check-ins only last the first couple of months. and then it’s almost forgotten that the juggle doesn’t end. you know, the juggle still continues and actually it can be worse beyond those first few months. as we get into the routine and that adrenaline isn’t quite there. it’s never ending. Businesses need to ensure that when they’re implementing return to work policies, it’s not just a tick box exercise and the implementation of these is decent and consistent. I also believe businesses need to look into their paternity leave policies and make them competitive until we break down the barriers that women are the primary caregivers we won’t have equity.
Julia: It’s interesting listening to you talk about that because so much of that is based upon assumption and I’d almost say commitment and consistency is sort of what bubbles up for me when, when I listen to you talk about that. I’ve heard a lot of people talk about this question about upskilling and do you know, what’s occurred to me more recently, more than ever before is, we talk about the pace of change. So of course anybody who’s off for a year’s maternity leave, may just go, “I just get behind very, very quickly.” I work in the world of technology in financial services and technology and I hear everybody talk about the pace of new applications and new enterprise wide technologies and new ways of coding and building and developing and implementing.
It strikes me that if you were to harness the potential of returning mothers, you could actually leapfrog very quickly because by upskilling them, it’s actually a means in which to make sure that you are returning teams are always at the very edge of best practice. Because your established teams, if I could call them that are the ones who are cantering along at regular business as usual. It’s a huge opportunity to bring them, or is that naive of me? I’d love to get your thoughts on that.
Eleanor: Absolutely. I’m speaking with businesses, quite often they’re just not aware of the impact of not upskilling. and upskilling should be consistent. There should be budgets for everybody within a business to be upskilled consistently. I think where the problem starts with returning mothers is that they may be upskilling and feel like with people that aren’t currently on maternity leave, that that’s a good investment. And I fear that they don’t feel that it’s necessarily a good investment to be spending that time upskilling or putting returning mothers on those courses. Quite often they may be sidelined for opportunities, and that’s really concerning.
Julia: Let me bring in Eleanor at this point, because it strikes me as if we start looking ahead in terms of the returning population of working mothers to the workplace. Plus also you were talking about the next stage of life when the children arguably are older. You’ve described your own personal circumstances as well and a few things I was thinking about in my research ahead of the interview was to the point about upskilling and skills absorption and getting the benefit from it. But I know you are concerned that there’s a potential brain drain if we are not retaining and motivating this cohort of women as they come through this journey, we’re at risk of an even greater amplified dropoff. I’d love to get your thoughts on that.
Eleanor: Well, I have to say, Sophie, it really pains me to hear that things are so bad in the tech industry, particularly because the tech industry is at the forefront of the new culture. And I remember when we were all being castigated in a kind of legacy media that the tech was the feature that everyone thought that it was gonna harald a whole bright new dawn of DEI policies and inclusive workplaces. I have to say all the people who work for the tech giants and found it to be anywhere but that, where they speak a lot of rhetoric about how they had inclusive return to work policies and parental leave and stuff. But if you actually dare to ask for any flexibility or expect it, then you were going to be in big trouble and you didn’t last there very long.
I’ve seen that in many close friends of mine. I also think it’s interesting having been to Facebook and interviewed Sheryl Sandberg and all of that kind of thing, but a lot of the talk is not really followed by the walk and in those places. In fact, Sheryl said that she told me a good story about the tech industry, about how she’d spoken on a podcast about how she left the office at six and so that she could go home and have dinner with her children. She was sent a whole bouquet of flowers from all the women at Yahoo going, well if Sheryl’s allowed to do it, then we are too. Which I always thought was quite funny about the lack of flexibility or thought about any of that parental leave in the tech industry.
I think what’s interesting in relation to that in Queenagers is when you talk to a woman of 50, you never know she’s gonna have you know, a 20 year old like I do or a or a two year old. In fact I was talking to a Queenager last night who’s got a four year old and a two year old who is very much in the zone that Sophie’s talking about. I think when we think about women’s lives, we have to be very aware of the fact that there are a lot of women who are now having their children much later. Just because someone’s a Queenager, doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re not juggling very small children or indeed teenagers.
What we see the pressures, the pressures as women come age within the workforce, particularly between about 45 and 55, we get this real pinch point where you get a combination of the divorce, bereavement, elderly parents, teenagers in trouble, some of your own health issues, a bit of menopause, all of those squeezes come together.
Often what gives them is the woman’s career. But what we also see is that when they go through that pinch point and then they come out into the sunny upland,where suddenly a lot of those tensions are resolved when your children leave home. My eldest is now at university, and you suddenly have a lot of time and you can really apply yourself to your job. And there’s this massive sense of purpose and you see loads of women founding their own businesses and really kind of powering up for a fantastic fifties and sixties, but the world is not kind of caught up with that.
So the fact that we have a greater health span and we are living longer, and that women now have this extra bit of time, say from 50 to 75 when we’re all gonna have to keep on working where actually, rather than when they’re in their thirties when everything concertinas at once, you actually do have an opportunity.
Then I think as a Queenager you really come into your power. You’ve got all that experience, all that skillset, you are still really hungry to earn you weave into a sense of purpose. For a lot of the women who don’t have children, their work very much is their legacy and they feel really passionate about that. So they’re moving off into purpose filled projects.
What I think the working world has caught up with is that extra runway that women now have in their lives and particularly in their working lives, and yet gender ageism means that all too often I see so many women who are made redundant at 50. I mean, within the media, it’s almost like as you come up to 50 you will get wacked. It’s the same if you look at the kind of advertising and marketing the numbers of women in, say media agencies over 50, it’s less than 2%. There’s a massive I think, like a brain block about the shifts that are going on in demographics, what that means for women’s careers particularly, and this sense that those careers can be more wiggly and not so linear. Actually what I love about the Queenager work is, it extends the runway for all women.
Part of the reason I’m really complaining on this is I want my own daughters to look forward to being 50 is when they come into their prime not to feel that they’re past some ridiculous sell by date,. I don’t think employers have cooked up with that. And there’s still much of an idea in our culture that men you age like fine wine and kind of see the silver foxes, whereas women are seen as peaches, you know, one wrinkle and you are in the bin. And I’ve never, I really love things like Michelle Yo recently winning an Oscar and saying, don’t let anybody ever tell you that you are, you are past your prime. Because I think that that’s really true of women and it goes to a deep sense in our culture of what we value women for.
Julia: Sophie, let me bring you in here because I’m keen to hear as we listen to Elenaors remarks there with the groups of women you work with, what can we learn from this concept of Queenagers?
Sophie: I think we can learn a lot, but I think Eleanors points are essential. And I’ve got two children. I have a very wide range of ages and the groups of my friends that have children the same age, and multiple women of my closest friends are in their forties. One of them has even luckily retired, which is incredible. It’s complex, and you are right. I think the important thing is to understand that we should not have to achieve everything by the time that we are 30. And I think there is this real pressure on the younger generation of women and men in their twenties that startups, for example, are purely for men in their twenties, and that’s absolutely not the case. It’s really important to be reminded of that, that just because you haven’t achieved everything in your career by the time you have a child, if you choose to do so, that doesn’t matter, there is still a long time ahead.
We see some incredible female founders that have set up businesses that are Queenagers. In terms of what we can learn from Eleanor I think midlife women are absolutely essential to the workforce, first of all. We know that the government is pushing returners and those returners include midlife women, mums, etc. We know that is partly on the agenda, And naturally midlife women, of course, they bring a wealth of experience, knowledge, confidence amongst many other things. And I heard this really interesting concept at an event recently about the mentor sandwich of having women that are at the top of their career later in life have gone through all those struggles, mentoring women that are in the the middle of their career or earlier, and then also that person, then mentoring somebody that’s at the early stage. So you’ve got everybody’s passing on that information beautifully to each other, which is great.
In terms of kind of foundations and what women can do to ensure that they are, they have support long term through their families, etc. I think it’s really important that women are having open conversations and are setting out what they want to achieve with their own lives, with their partners, with their families. And it is not being that we always have to be the ones that leave our careers. It’s also important the onus is put on employers at this point as well to ensure that it’s, as you’ve mentioned Eleanor, there are, there are so many benefits of having, you know, women within senior leadership roles, etc. But we need to make sure that the onus is put on employers. It can’t always be about women having to fight and we have to try to fight our way through because that can become very tiring. We hear of some of the most incredible women that have left their jobs. It has got nothing to do with pay, it has got nothing to do with childcare cost in those circumstances, for these women, this is incredibly successful. What we need to do is ensure that our employers and society is set up to support women properly throughout their careers.
Julia: I think that that comes back to the leadership, the culture we talked about the flexible working, but also the, the kind of the, the recognising the huge, huge contribution that could be made. What I love about our discussion so far is it’s been not only very considered from many different perspectives and angles, we’ve also had some great data and statistics. And of course this is a great moment to bring in Cynthia Akinsanya for some research to support today’s discussion.
Cynthia: A study by the research group, Catalyst found that women under 45 were almost twice as likely to be called back for a second interview than older women. Yet women over 50 are the fastest growing group of the UK workforce. While in the United States, women aged 45 to 64 years make up almost a fifth of its workforce. When the average age of a CEO is 56, women experiencing the menopause as well as gendered ageism are facing fundamental barriers in their career progression. In a survey by HR training providers, DPG and overwhelming nine in ten mothers, 87% faced issues when returning to work after maternity leave. Findings also revealed that on returning to work, 17% feel marginalised or excluded by colleagues and over one in ten, 14% miss out on promotions because of maternity leave. One in five, 19% even find it necessary to leave their position altogether.
Julia: Thank you Cynthia, as always for the research. Let me just take a few moments to remind everybody how to find DiverCity Podcast and that links to the research can be found on our website, DiverCityPodcast.com. That’s where you can find all the episodes and sign up for early notifications of future recordings. Do also sign up for our newsletter. It’s called DE&I That Caught Our Eye where we share new stories and updates so you can stay on top of what’s current. Do follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn and DiverCity Podcast is available on all good podcast channels and we’re immensely proud of our five star rating. If you would like to rate us, we’d be delighted because it does all help to spread the word and promote the show.
Let’s go to the last section of the show, which is the question that I ask all our guests because I do feel deeply passionate that this must remain high. And as Eleanor, you mentioned on the board level agenda of why this subject around diversity, equity, inclusion, particularly thinking about the female dynamics throughout the career journey is so important. I would love to come to you for your remaining thoughts about why when we navigate these quite interesting challenging times, it must remain high. Sophie, I’m gonna come to you first of all your competing reasons why it’s so important.
Sophie: Well, I think from this conversation it’s, it’s clear that the work is not done. In fact, it’s moving at snail pace. If businesses truly want to see more women in leadership, more women in management and more gender balanced team, DEI has to remain on the agenda. It’s not as simple as getting a talent acquisition team to find more women for the recruitment pipeline. partly because there’s not enough women to fill those senior roles. so DEI strategy needs to go way above just looking at retention stats. We need to see corporates understanding that a policy is not going to magic up women taking up these roles. however, putting the emphasis on management, empathy, education, training and true understanding that is when we will see the shift. and it’s long term. It’s not a quick fix. So it must remain the top priority.
Julia: Thank you for everything you do to play your part in making sure that those, those themes and topics come through and land well, it’s really important. Eleanor, your final thoughts, if you would, about why this must remain high on the agenda.
Eleanor: Well, I don’t think the whole business of senior women and the problems facing and the pinch points facing Queenager has even begun to be discussed. I mean, as I started out by saying this is a pioneering generation. We are the first women to have got to this point in the workforce in such numbers. I don’t think there’s any understanding of the kinds of pressures that are pushing down upon us and the things which are stopping the women getting kind of through the marzipan layer through to the icing where we need them to take up the reins of leadership. If we are really going to change the culture.
There is still a real barrier to women breaking through that very top glass ceiling and all the things that Sophie talks about are completely right. But the point is that we’re still expected to exist as women in a man’s culture, and that is not really shifting and it’s going to take a lot longer, but part of the way that we make that happen is by understanding that we are at the beginning of a road.
We are nowhere near equality and all the different intersectionalities of this point that out. And I write a lot in all the different newspapers and I get lots of men from pushing back saying, “oh no, everyone’s now discriminating against men”. Accusing me of misery, and what I say is, okay, we can have a conversation around how men are discriminated against when there are 90/92 women running FTSE, 100 companies and only eight men. I mean it, we’re so far away from equality, it’s a joke.
Julia: Eleanor Mills, thank you so much for being on the show. I’ve admired your work consistently and regularly, and I don’t know whether you feel like I’ve been stalking you in any way, shape or form. As a Queenager myself I love the work you do. Thank you for taking the time to be with us.
Eleanor: No, thank you very much for having me. And I just think that this whole business about executive women and how we really get women to the top, it’s a thread which goes through all of this from the queenagers down to the very front, the women meeting, you know, first coming into the workplace and it is not fixed. We are at the beginning.
Julia: Well, it won’t be the last time we have this conversation for sure. Sophie Creese, thank you so much for everything you do and for taking the time to be with us today.
Sophie: Absolute pleasure. Thank you.
Julia: And to everybody who has tuned in, I hope you’ve enjoyed this conversation as much as I have. Thank you for joining us. I’ve been Julia Streets and until next time, goodbye.
Cynthia: This episode of Diversity Podcast was produced by Roshan Roberts on behalf of Julia Streets Production. You can find out more about the guests from this week’s show on our website. That’s www.divercitypodcast.com. That’s Divercity with a C and not an s. Whilst you were there. You can also sign up to our newsletter for all our latest updates. All our episodes are available in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favourite podcast app. If you enjoy DiverCity Podcast, remember to share on social media and give us a rating or review. And finally, our Twitter handle is at @DiverCityPod. Thanks for listening.