In this episode we discuss transitioning two very different perspectives. Host Julia Streets is joined by Josephine Hughes, a BACP Accredited Counsellor, business mentor and parent of transgender children and Liam Paschall, a transgender man committed to promoting understanding, inclusion, and allyship. They share their personal stories about the journey of transitioning and discuss policies and practices around gender identity and equality to create a trans-inclusive workplace. They explain the importance of focusing on the uniqueness of the individual, balancing inclusion with intersectionality. Together they examine the current social and political climate regarding transgender people and share their thoughts, insights and practical advice for gender creative parenting.
Josephine Hughes is a BACP Accredited Counsellor and a business mentor who helps other counsellors to market their practice. Her career has centred around helping parents cope with change and supporting people in difficult circumstances such as baby loss, infertility and domestic abuse. Since two of Josephine’s children came out as transgender in 2015, Josephine has been learning first-hand what it is like to face an unexpected change in family circumstances. Her podcast, Gloriously Unready, about her experience was reviewed by The Guardian who said: “Hughes is brutally honest and endlessly wise as she tells their story, outlining the moments that many parents face with so much love and support she can’t fail to help others”.
Liam Paschall is a transgender man who promotes understanding, inclusion, and allyship. He shares a wealth of experience and knowledge to educate, inspire and encourage learning. Liam is a LinkedIn Top Voice and a sought-after speaker who has delivered engaging talks and presentations globally at conferences, corporations, and community events. Liam brings a unique perspective to his work, combining his personal stories with research to provide a comprehensive understanding of the issues faced by transgender people. Through his engaging and dynamic style, he encourages individuals and organizations to become allies and advocates for LGBTQ+ rights and inclusion. Liam has been privileged to present for various companies and organizations, including myGWork, DataStax, DataCubed Health, Drug Information Association (DIA), CISCRP, The Diversity Movement, Cisco, Red Hat, Honest Culture, National Medical Fellowships, Inc., and Credit Suisse. He has been featured in several publications: Contemporary Clinical Trials, Business Travel News, CenterWatch, and Clinical Trials Arena. He has also been a featured guest on numerous podcasts. Liam is passionate about creating a more inclusive world, a place of belonging for everyone.
Series Sixteen, Episode Four Transcript
Julia: Hello, my name is Julia Streets and welcome to DiverCity Podcast talking about equity, inclusion, and diversity in financial services.
On the podcast, we seek to shine a light on positive progress, corn out areas requiring further focus and offer lots of ideas to help drive change. Before we get started today, I just want to take a moment to thank our friends at City A.M. They’ve given DiverCity Podcast a new home at Impact A.M., their pages dedicated to ESG, impact investment, DE&I and so much more. We really appreciate that they publish and promote both our episodes and our supporting blog series so their readers can stay right on top of the very latest diversity, equity, and inclusion debate. So thank you to City A.M.
In this episode, we’re going to focus on transitioning inclusion in the workplace and gender creative parenting. I’m joined by two guests. Our first guest is Liam Paschall, who is a transgender man committed to promoting understanding inclusion and allyship. He shares a wealth of experience and knowledge designed to educate and to inspire. He encourages individuals and organisations to become allies and advocates for LGBTQ+ rights and also inclusion. He’s a much sought-after speaker and commentator listed as a LinkedIn top voice, and he has spoken to many organisations combining both his personal stories with research all to provide a comprehensive understanding of the issues faced by transgender people. Liam, welcome to the show.
Liam: Thank you for having me. I get so excited whenever I’m asked to participate in a discussion around gender, gender identity, transitioning, especially in the workplace. I think it’s something that we need so much more representation in, and when I’m asked to share my thoughts and my personal stories here, I feel like I’m helping to create a better, more inclusive world for those that will be here long after I’m gone.
Julia: A very warm welcome. Our second guest today is Josephine Hughes. She is a BACP Accredited Counsellor and a business mentor who in turn helps other counsellors to market their practises. Her career has centred around helping parents cope with change and supporting people in difficult circumstances such as baby loss, infertility, and domestic abuse. Since two of Josephine’s children came out as transgender in 2015, Josephine has been learning firsthand what it is like to face an unexpected change in family circumstances. Her podcast, Gloriously Unready, talks about her experiences and when reviewed by The Guardian newspaper, they said she addresses the moments that many parents face with so much love and support she can’t fail to help others. Josephine, a very warm welcome to the show.
Josephine: Thank you. And thank you so much for inviting me to be here. I’m looking forward to sharing my views and listening to Liam as well.
Julia: Well, I couldn’t think of two better guests to have on the show, so welcome both. Now listen, before we get into it, I’m so curious to know what you’re focused on right now. Josephine, can I come to you first?
Josephine: What I’d say is as a parent, you want your children to be safe. It’s such a basic human fundamental thing that we look for, it’s about survival. So what I’m actually focusing on is trying to make the world a safer place for transgender people, especially in the current political climate because transgender people make up less than 1% of the UK population, but they are so much in the news at the moment, they’re attracting an unnecessary amount of media attention. I’m focusing on supporting them through my work, trying to help parents to help them accept their children, and also, I think very importantly, amplifying transgender voices. I’ve included them in my podcast as well because there’s such a small minority and more people need to hear from them.
Julia: Couldn’t agree more. I think this is a really fascinating juxtaposition between, as you say, a lot of media attention, but also voices that need to be represented and need to be heard as well. Liam, same question to you. What are you focused on right now?
Liam: I think Josephine took a lot of what I’m focusing on as well, but I want to say that for me, when I knew that I was a transgender person, it took me a very long time due to fear and various other things for me to actually come out and be my true self. My goal is really to promote understanding and empathy through my talks, through advocacy and educational efforts, whether it be schools, events, churches, companies, and really share, be like an open book, my own personal stories, things that I have been through, the good and the bad, and try to dispel those myths and offer real-life insights into what it is to be trans, to help people see the humanity and the experiences of this community. I think it’s vital to challenge biases, to break down stereotypes and really foster a more open-minded and compassionate society. And we can’t do that without the voices of trans people.
Julia: What I’d love to do is to give some time and some space, because you both have very different stories and I’d love to just give you some space to share part of your story, if you would, with the audience and thinking about your journey, your personal journeys, and also your role in this conversation today. Liam, may I come to you, first of all?
Liam: I would say I knew when I was four. The interesting thing for me is that at that time I had never heard the word transgender. There were no transgender role models. The closest thing you might see to anyone being transgender, which was basically an insulting way to view it, was the Jerry Springer show. And so for me, I knew that I was different, not abnormal, but different. I just didn’t know what to call it. If you can imagine, I’m sure all of you have at some point put together a puzzle and there’s these puzzle pieces that may not fit. Maybe they came out of a different puzzle, maybe you picked them up somewhere in the house and they just don’t fit. They don’t fit with the ones around them. That’s kind of like what it feels like. It’s like knowing deep down that you’re not the same as others, and that’s okay, but you can’t really explain why.
And so for a very long time when I finally felt comfortable enough to come out, and I hate that terminology, I think it’s all about inviting people in, I lived my life as a lesbian because I felt like it was the safest way for me to be as close as I could be to myself while still maintaining my safety. I didn’t come out until much later in life and I want to do my part as much as possible to make our youth feel more safe and secure, not isolated, and know that they have so many people behind them, beside them and in front of them to help support them and really feel comfortable living their true, living their authentic lives. So that’s a little bit about my story.
Julia: Thank you for sharing it. There’s so many questions that kind of flow from that. The words that really stick out for me are this whole thing about safety, and that is where you began, Josephine, with your remarks at the top of the show about what you’re focused on right now. Would you be happy to share your story as well?
Josephine: Yes, of course. I’ve got three children and two of them came to me completely separately in 2015. They didn’t know about each other. It was complete coincidence. They both came out to me as transgender women. I didn’t at that point know a lot about anything to do with transgender issues. It wasn’t in the news quite as much. I think the thing is, as a parent, you sort of try and protect your children. You believe that you’re the adult, that you know the way forward. And of course when they come out as transgender, you’re actually a little bit wrong-footed because you don’t actually know anything about it. And usually, it’s like Liam says, he knew that he was transgender a long, long time before he told anyone. Certainly with my children, they had thought about it a lot.
And then as a parent, what you’re doing is you are in this state of utter shock, but also at that point they really need you to love them, to affirm them, to help them with their journey. For me, actually, I look back at it now, and I think I was really lucky because I didn’t go straight to the internet and start looking things up because to be honest, I was a bit scared about what I was going to find out. So I thought all I’m going to do is I’m just going to give them what they need. My guiding light was what can I do to love them really? They worked it out in terms of their own transition.
But what I’d say is that for us it was a huge shock. Transgender people talk about their dead names, but my husband said at the time, he said it feels horribly appropriate because at that point, in a very typical parental way, this is what a lot of parents say, they feel like their children have died. But of course that is not the case at all. And what we’ve discovered over time is actually our children, they are completely the same children, completely the same, apart from the fact that they are much happier and they are more themselves.
Actually that’s what I’m there to support parents with on this journey and then to encourage them. One of my friends said, if you could see it like they are a book and the cover changes, but the essential child doesn’t change. And that’s what we’ve found to be true. And it feels very scary as a parent, you worry that they’re going on a path where they’ll have regrets and at eight years in, they’re both very happy. You worry about them getting jobs, about getting partners, all those sorts of things, about being bullied. And, yes, life can be challenging for them, but also they are so much happier being themselves. I think that’s a really important thing for parents to know.
Liam: Can I add something here too? Because for me, when I did decide to come out, my parents had basically disowned me. I mean unfortunately that is the case, but I want to go back to something Josephine said with we’re still the same people. If you look at individuals as a gift in your life, trans people, we are still that same gift on the inside. Some of the things may change on the outside as far as your gift wrapping if you think about a present, but we are still those same human beings that we were previously. We’re now just happier, more authentic and able to live our lives without the worries of suppressing that part of us that we really don’t want to have to suppress it.
Julia: Thank you both for your thoughts on that. And later on in the show we’re going to talk about some advice to give parents, as you say, in that critical moment. As many listeners will know that as a gay woman, as a lesbian myself, I hadn’t really talked about it on the show, but I had my journey of coming out. I just want to support, Josephine, your remark about it’s at the moment when children come to parents that they have done so much thinking that actually they need to be seen, they need to be held, they need to be loved and supported, and it’s such a critical moment. We’re going to come to that in a second, but before we do that, I’m really curious to pick up on this point about workplace and workplace practises. You were talking there, Josephine, about your thoughts about will they get jobs, and I understand one of your daughters works in technology, I believe.
Josephine: Yes, that’s right.
Julia: I’d love to get your thoughts on what can workplaces do, what are great best practises to support individuals?
Josephine: It’s such a great question, and like you say, my daughter is a technologist and she has very good skills and that means that she is really in demand. I think in terms of employers, they need to get their credentials out there right from the start. Recently during the pandemic, she looked for a job, she can get job three or four job offers within a couple of weeks. She was interviewed by several people, she chose the company where the interviewee interviewed her and he had a pride flag behind him. And so she felt, yes, I can fit in. Something that she’ll look for is she doesn’t want to be the only LGBTQ person within a company. That inclusivity and diversity is really important to her.
Now she’s actually employed, so she’s going through the process of her voice therapy. She got to the point where she had been speaking with a male voice and now she’s ready to use her female voice at work. She talked to her manager about it and the manager supported her and said, “What would you like to do about this? Do you want to make an announcement? Do you want me to make an announcement? How do you want to do?” And listen to her opinion and then made it easy for her and paved the way for that to happen.
The other thing I just wanted to add is that she’s a technologist and like many technologists, she’s actually, she’s got more than just being transgender, she’s also got neurodiversity. I think that’s another aspect that employers need to consider when they are employing people from LGBTQ backgrounds, that they often do come with intersectional things that we need to think about communication and sensory overload. I think it’s important to obviously accommodate those as well to make life easier for transgender people.
Julia: Wonderful. Thank you for your thoughts there. We’re on a podcast so the audience can’t see what I see, which is, Liam, you are nodding with a lot of that. Love to get your thoughts. What best practise? Also, where else must we focus?
Liam: Well, first of all, we have to get away from the notion that inclusion, whether it be trans inclusion or any other type of inclusion is a checklist, a checkbox activity. I think we have learned this more and more since the start of the pandemic, but it’s an ongoing commitment to really foster a workplace where everybody can thrive regardless of their background, their gender, their race, ethnicity and so on. Companies have got to really demonstrate, and the key word there is demonstrate their dedication to diversity, equity and inclusion.
I say that because there are so many companies that do a really good job within the walls, even virtual walls of their organisations of being inclusive, of promoting inclusivity and equity and diversity. But when it comes to speaking up and standing up against all of the anti-trans legislation that we’re seeing, particularly across the US right now, most companies are remaining silent. While things are important within the company like education and awareness, we want employees to have empathy and understanding and really reduce those misconceptions and biases. We do that by workshops and webinars and reading materials, training. And those need to be done by trans individuals, people from the community. You can’t bring in a cisgender person to do this type of training. You just can’t.
Gender inclusive policies. I was fortunate in working for the company I was with at the time that when I came out, everything was done basically on my timeline. And I was asked, how do you want to do this? What is going to make you feel the safest, the most comfortable? How can we help you to do this? I was managing a team at the time, and I’ll never forget when it all happened, the day it sort of went down and everything changed in the system, my manager called me, I was in the car on the way home and he said to me, “Hey, I heard you were changing your name and your pronouns are going to be he and him now.” And I’m like, “Yes, I am and I’m going to start my testosterone pretty soon.”
He said, “You know what? I’m your manager, I’m your leader, and I’ll always be that, but I want you to know you’ve also got a brother in me now. Anytime you want to talk, you pick up the phone, call me, whether it’s on the weekend, whatever, it doesn’t matter.” And that’s that safe and supportive environment that you can’t teach. You’ve got to have the people that are working for their companies that are empathetic, that care, that want to learn what they can do better to be better individuals, to be better leaders at the company.
I’ll wrap it up this, you’ve got to start asking yourself some questions. Do transgender people have a seat at the table? If they don’t, why do they not have a seat at the table? What do you need to do to rectify that? Is your company a place where not only can you say, “Hey, we’re on the list of inclusive companies from HRC,” but do your employees feel safe being their authentic selves? Are they being harassed and you don’t know it? Have you reviewed any survey results that you’ve done to find out if there’s relevant data to support your findings? And how can we really signal to every single employee, you are safe here, whether you’re working from home, whether you’re working at a coffee shop, whether you are working in the office, you are safe with us and we are here to support you. Last but not least, just making sure that employees know it’s not okay to just be a bystander. You’ve got to be an upstander, a co-conspirator to the trans community, and you’ve got to be willing to step up and speak up even when it’s most uncomfortable.
Julia: Building on your remarks there, particularly when we watch the, and again, it comes back to a comment that Josephine opened with, which is when we watch the news agenda and the attitude shift, it is so important for those organisations to take a voice and to stand, and allyship and advocacy that I mentioned in the introduction of you, Liam, about how you help organisations to do that. Really important. Thank you for both your thoughts on that. And I’d love to then return, if I may, to the question about advice for parents. We get asked this a lot. Thinking about it from a practical and a personal point of view, I mean, Josephine, I absolutely must start with you if you would. How do you help parents prepare for what their children may well face?
Josephine: In terms of parents, you need to look inside as well and look at your own fears and work out what’s going on for you. And a lot of it is about allowing yourself to recognise that. What you’d imagined the future to be, what you thought you had needs to change. I would say for parents, that’s the journey that you take yourself, that they’ve always been transgender, it’s just you didn’t know. I’ve had all these fantasies about what my children’s lives were going to be like, and I grieved for those fantasies. It wasn’t actually grieving for my children. So that’s what I’d like to say to parents.
But in terms of preparing children for the workplace, for example, I think there’s a couple of things. The obvious thing is, is that you want to encourage them to get good skills, but like Liam was saying earlier, there’s this huge stress of dysphoria if you’re not being recognised, if you’re not being supported. That’s a huge, huge distraction, especially for young people, and suicide rates amongst young transgender people is very high. And I think at a societal level, we need to recognise that and we need to make access to gender-affirming care more easier.
I think as parents, to affirm our children, at the very very least, to use the correct pronouns and their new name, if that’s what they ask of us, because that will take a lot of the pressure off them. That means that they can then concentrate on their education, on their schoolwork or their university work so they can get good skills and get themselves employed. It’s taking away that stress of being in a minority. I think as parents, certainly that’s my passion to help make it easier for young people to be able to express themselves as transgender without it being a problem. Obviously employers can help with their policies. That helps a lot.
Julia: What advice would you give parents about how to look after themselves? Because arguably they’re taking on that stress in an effort to alleviate and support and help their children feel safe. What advice would you give parents?
Josephine: Parents need to be really careful about where they go for information and advice. I’ve got a little handout that I give, and I had someone who came to me recently and said, “It’s so refreshing to read this because most of what I’ve found on the internet has been really transphobic, anti-transgender.” That is the majority of a lot of what is written. Most of the media don’t express pro transgender views. That’s very scary and there’s a lot of misinformation out there. So I would say to parents, you need to choose really carefully. Certainly in the UK there is an agenda to undermine some of the LGBTQ organisations that can support people like Mermaids, for example, or Stonewall that’s spoken about very badly in the media, but in fact, they are staffed by people who are part of the community or who are parents. That’s actually the most helpful place that people can go.
I’d say be really careful, but also if you need extra support to acknowledge that this is a really hard thing that you’re going through, and if necessary to seek out a gender-affirming therapist. You can usually recognise them because they will use their pronouns after their names, for example. You’re not going to get them questioning or bringing up arguments that actually in no way reflect the research. There’s a huge body of research into transgender medical care, and it goes against so much of what we read. It isn’t talked about, it isn’t acknowledged, but transgender people have been being looked after for generations. There is a good body of research out there, but this often isn’t recognised and it’s not talked about or it’s denied, and other small pieces of research are thrown up. I mean, I wouldn’t go on Twitter, for example. I wouldn’t. I’ve left Twitter. It’s just not a place to be if you’ve got transgender kids.
Julia:Liam, I’m getting a very strong signal that you’re agreeing with that. I wonder if I could take you back to the original question, which is what advice do you give parents? Obviously you kindly shared some thoughts about your personal expectations that perhaps, if I could be so bold as to say, weren’t met. I’d love to hear your thoughts and also, what advice do you give parents?
Liam: One thing I would say is you’ve got to listen without judgement. That is hard oftentimes for human beings to do in general. But if you’re not creating that safe space where they can openly express themselves, you’re doing a disservice to your child. Certainly shutting off communication and just ignoring the conversation, thinking it’s a fad or a phase, that is not the answer. Like Josephine said, don’t try to educate yourself with Twitter or X, or God forbid, whatever it’s called now or any type of media. There are obviously some good organisations that have websites that people can access, but learn about the trans identities, the experiences, the challenges to understand better and really support your child.
One of the things that I hear quite often, which makes me feel very good about what I do, is I’ll have people that will send me just an out of the blue message and say, “Hey, because of what you posted on here about this experience that you’ve had, I’ve been able to better understand my child.” I talk to trans people and really try to get a feeling for what it is like, what their experience is like. Respect your child’s identity. If this month they want their pronouns to be he and they, and six months down the road, they want to change it to they and them, okay, that’s not harming anyone. Just go along with what they want, support them, validate their feelings, validate their experiences.
One of the things that I wish my parents had just been able to wrap their head around was, stop worrying about what everyone else is going to think. Stop worrying about the fact that you feel like you have failed as a parent. It is nothing you have done up until this point. It’s what you do now that is going to make a difference. Keep religion out of it. Religion has nothing to do with it. I know that there will be people who say, “Liam, that’s not true. It says right here in my good book that this is not okay.” No, that’s your perception. We have multiple religions around the world. Connect with local LGBTQ+ groups and organisations and really try to get more support than just you and your spouse and your kids.
At the end of the day, respect the privacy. That’s a big one. If you are wanting to share this information, my child came out as trans, nonbinary, gender-nonconforming, whatever, do that with their consent. Maybe get them involved in that conversation and let them know that if they’re going through any type of bullying, whether it be at school or on sports teams, whether it’s an adult or another child, that you’re going to be there and you’re going to help them resolve that. You’re going to call it out. You’re going to stand up for them, and you are going to be there with that last thing I’m going to say here is that unconditional love. You’ve got to show them that no matter what, you love them unconditionally, that you are always going to be there to support them, and that you know they’re the same person they’ve always been, they’re just maybe a little bit different on the outside now. That’s going to have a profound impact on their wellbeing and how they grow up and handle the world, the workplace, and their relationships overall.
Julia: Thank you both for all your thoughts there. Let me just pause for a moment to bring in Cynthia Akinsanya for some research to support today’s discussion.
Cynthia: This year in the UK, the Chartered Institute of Personnel Development, CIPD, published new guidance on transgender and nonbinary inclusion at work as part of its suite of guides and ongoing commitment to support people, professionals, and employers in improving equality, diversity, and inclusion in the workplace. CIPD research published in February 2021 found that 55% of transgender workers surveyed had experienced conflicts at work over a 12-month period. 18% also stated they felt psychologically unsafe at work. While in the United States, the 2023 Forbes article, Workplace Strategies for Transgender Inclusion cited that the 2022 Corporate Equality Index found that 97% of businesses in the study have protections for nonbinary and transgender workers up from just 5% in 2002, and there are now 22 times as many employers who offer transgender inclusive health insurance compared to 2009.
Julia: Thank you, Cynthia, as always. Let’s take a few moments to remind everybody about how to find the DiverCity Podcast. Links to the research can be found on our website, divercitypodcast.com. Don’t forget that’s DiverCity with a C, not with an S, divercitypodcast.com, where you can find all our episodes and sign up for early notifications of future recordings. Do also sign up for our newsletter, DE&I That Caught Our Eye. That’s where we share new stories and updates so you can stay on top of what’s current. And of course, you can follow us on the social media channels. I hate to say it, we’ve decided today that Twitter, or X, is not a great channel. However, you can find us and our episodes on there. Also, Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and DiverCity Podcast is available on all good podcast channels. And by the way, we’re immensely proud of our five-star rating. If you would care to give us a rating, we’d really appreciate it because it all helps to extend the reach even further.
Liam and Josephine, I would love to see us out on the show in the same fashion that we do with all our guests. I have some deep-seated concerns that while corporate priorities may well shift, given these interesting times in which we exist, why it is so important that diversity, equity, and inclusion must remain high on the corporate agenda. Josephine, can I come to you first?
Josephine: I would say that companies that have good inclusion policies are going to recruit the best people, and people’s identity isn’t as important, really, in a sense. Productive employees, if they’re supported in who they are, they’ll be happier, they’ll be more productive, they’ll be more creative. You can recruit good people. They’re very intelligent. I would say it’s absolutely vital because it allows people to be themselves. Happy workers are productive workers.
Julia: Ultimately, it all comes down to compelling reasons why in terms of performance during these interesting times, see your talent and also support your talent because then happy people are productive people. Thank you very much, Josephine. Really appreciate that. Liam, coming to you for final words. See us out of the show with your compelling reasons absolutely why this must remain high on the board agenda.
Liam: It’s not just a social responsibility. It’s a business imperative in my opinion. I’ve had several conversations on the topic of why it’s actually part of corporate social responsibility, and I have people that disagree with me on that, but when you think about corporate social responsibility, it’s people, planet, and profit. Companies do a really good job of focusing on the planet and the profit. We’ve got to learn that the people are what makes a company who they are and what they are.
I think it’s creating a more inclusive workplace where every employee, every human being feels valued, they feel heard, they feel seen, they feel safe. That’s going to boost morale overall. It’s going to boost employee engagement and overall job satisfaction. This is going to be a win-win-win because we’re going to have higher retention rates, increased productivity, like Josephine said. And when an employee sees that an organisation is committed, truly committed to fairness and equal opportunity, they’re more likely to invest their time and their skills into that company’s success.
The one other thing I would say here is there are a lot of company leaders who do a really fantastic job of saying all the right words, getting on all the right lists, making sure that they’re seen as an inclusive company. But if you are not walking the talk, people know that, we can see right through it. While it is very difficult right now considering our political climate for a lot of us to get jobs, a lot of us are unemployed or underemployed, we have got to the point where we are being very picky about who we’re going to give our time and energy to. I want company leaders to understand that you’ve got to get out there and walk the talk and show us that we matter because words are no longer enough.
Julia: Liam Paschall, thank you so much for being on the show. I’ve really appreciated all your insights and I’m sure the audience have too. Thank you.
Liam: Thank you.
Julia: Josephine Hughes, thank you for sharing your story and being with us today.
Josephine: Thank you.
Julia: As always, thank you to all our listeners. We really appreciate all your support. Please do rate us if you feel that you would like to, but also we’d love to hear from you about who else you would like us to interview on the show. It’s been a fantastic episode. I hope you’ve enjoyed it as much as I have. I’ve been Julia Streets, and thank you as always for listening. Until next time, goodbye.
Cynthia: This episode of DiverCity Podcast was produced by Roshan Roberts on behalf of Julia Streets Productions. You can find out more about the guests from this week’s show on our website. That’s www.divercitypodcast.com. That’s DiverCity with a C and not an S. Whilst you are there you can also sign up to our newsletter for all our latest updates. All our episodes are available in Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favourite podcast app. If you enjoy DiverCity Podcast, remember to share on social media and give us a rating or review. And finally, our Twitter handle is @divercitypod. Thanks for listening.