Series Three, Episode One: D&I – Forget ‘why’ and move onto ‘how’ (Recorded live)

Julia: Hello, my name is Julia Streets, and a very warm welcome to this special edition of DiverCity Podcast, talking about diversity and inclusion in the world of financial services.

In each episode, we seek to shine a light on positive progress, call out areas requiring further focus, and offer plenty of ideas to help drive change. We are particularly delighted that this episode is recorded in front of a live audience at The Women in Payments Symposium, in Toronto, and I’m joined on the main stage by our three guests.

Our first guest is Executive Vice President of Global Business Payments, Scotiabank, Rania Llewellyn. Rania is responsible for the payments infrastructure strategy for the bank, defining a global payments governance and operating model, where she oversees the execution of the key initiatives for Global Business Payments.

And our second guest today, is Tanya van Biesen, the Executive Director of Catalyst here in Canada, with a mission to accelerate progress for women through workplace inclusion, working alongside a wide range of supporters, corporate partners, leaders, and industry stakeholders.

Our third guest today, is Suzan Denoncourt. Suzan is the Managing Director of Ingenico Group, responsible for all aspects of the Canadian operation, and she is an advisor for various industry boards, including an advisor for Women in Payments, Canada. And it is at this point that I invite this wonderful audience here at The Women in Payments Symposium in Canada, to please join me in welcoming Rania, Tanya, and Suzan to the show. Thank you so much, I’m excited to be here, thank you for joining me, it is very exciting.

So, at the top of every show, we invite each guest to take a minute to just talk a little bit about your organisations, and what you’re particularly focused on in the field of diversity and inclusion. So Rania, let me start with you. What are you focused on at the moment?

Rania: I’m delighted to be here today, this is my first podcast. And so, what we’re focused on is Scotiabank – Scotiabank is Canada’s most international bank and so, by virtue of that, all of our employees are diverse, and they reflect all the communities that we serve – and so, that’s been a huge competitive advantage for us, and so, I would say, it starts at the very top of the house, and the tone at the very top.

Our CEO, Brian Porter leads The Inclusion Council, and they’re rolling out a whole bunch of initiatives. One of the key things we’re proud of, for example, is Unconscious Bias is now a mandatory training program for all of our employees. We’re part of the Catalyst code that we signed up for, and 33% of our board of directors are currently female. So we are very committed to diversity, and it’s something that’s from the very top of the house.

We’ve got lots of core initiatives also, that are root cause initiatives, and so, it’s something that’s on everyone’s metric. Some of the key things we’ve done on the technology side; we’ve got something called Ignite that’s focusing on how do we ignite our middle managers, or senior managers, in terms of taking the stage, finding their voice, and developing them as future leaders in the organisation.

And so, even in capital markets as well, we’ve got the Back to Bay Street Campaign, that’s part of women in capital markets, and to be honest, diversity is now a target for each of our leaders across the organisation. It doesn’t matter what business line you’re in, and so, it’s a key focus for us, and we see it as a key competitive advantage for us.

Julia: Wonderful, and there’s so much in that we’re going to unpick in terms of not only the role of technology, but also leadership governance, and middle management, that’s wonderful way to start though, so thank you very much. Tanya, let me come to you then, from a Catalyst perspective, what are you focused on?

Tanya: Yes, thank you Julia. Yes, so at Catalyst – I think I actually have the best job in the country – Catalyst is a non-profit, we’ve been around for a long time, we work with about 800 companies globally to make process systemic behavioural and cultural change to advance women. We don’t focus on the women. The women are fine. We focus on the organisations, so I have the good fortune of working with leaders at all stages of their diversity and inclusion journeys, and that could be at the very beginning to those that are very far along, as Rania has described at Scotiabank, where the interventions need to be made to create those systemic changes, so that women can advance, and we can achieve equity, and parody.

Julia: Wonderful, thank you very much indeed. And Suzan, what are you focused on?

Suzan: Well, Ingenico Group operates today in about 130 countries worldwide, so to say there’s diversity would be an understatement. From a corporate level, trying to encourage the inclusion, and diversity is a program, a very large program, which translates very differently in different regions, so as head of the Canadian operation, I think what I can bring to this discussion is certain informal initiatives that I’ve actually put in place to encourage the inclusion, and diversity among my own teams here. Things that I think can also be applied easily in other organisations.

Julia: Well, there’ll be plenty of that. That’s the one thing we love about this podcast, lots of really good best practice ideas to take away. So, let’s start with the central question, and what I always say is the essential question, which is, ultimately, why diversity and inclusion matters? Suzan, let me come to you first of all, why does it, that you have, in terms of evidence and talking about why diversity and inclusion matters to gain a commercial, and competitive edge?

Suzan: I think it’s context. Speaking of context, if you’re speaking to an audience, you’re not speaking to a homogenous group of people. In your own worlds, and in your own lives, there’s got to be, it’s rare today certainly in cosmopolitan areas that you’re speaking to one single nationality, one single age group. There’s diversity everywhere, in our personal lives, in our professional lives, and whatnot. The ability to communicate effectively, to have to identify problems, and solutions is a virtue of context.

And, coming at it, understanding the context as a function of getting everyone’s perspective. It can’t be singular, it has to be the broadest perspective possible in order to really focus on that full context.

Julia: And, just exploring that a little bit further, because I know from Catalyst’s perspective, you think a lot about the contribution that diversity brings commercially as well. Do you have some evidence that it actually drives change, or is this just a pipe dream?

Tanya: It’s not a pipe dream.

Julia: Not a pipe dream.

Tanya: So, we are a research based organisation. We spend tons and tons of time on this topic. What I would assert is the following. This is not just the right thing to do, although it is the right thing to do, but it’s not just the right thing to do, it is the only thing to do, because by definition if you’re drawing from only 50% of the population, you are ignoring 50% of the talent base. Therefore, in the remainder of the talent base that you are focusing on, you’re going to get a whole bunch of low performance just by regular performance curves.

So, opening up your talent window is critical, because if you’re ignoring part of the talent base, you are missing out on performance. So, coming to performance, what we know from study, after study, after study is that when we have gender balanced teams, we have higher levels of productivity, higher levels of innovation, and higher levels of creativity.

Why that is, is because when you introduce different perspectives around a table, it has been proven that they consider facts. In other words, they focus more on facts. They consider those facts more carefully, and they generate more creative results around problems, and as the world becomes increasingly complex, and all of our problems, whether it’s within financial services, or outside, become increasingly complex. We need more minds, and greater creativity around the solutions to those problems.

Julia: Rania, you’re a commercial leader. I mean, you must be focused on the numbers, and really thinking about the performance as well. Is that your experience as well?

Rania: Absolutely. There are two key cultural shifts that we’ve been undergoing at Scotiabank, and one is performance orientation, and the other one is customer focus. So, going back to what Tanya was saying, customer focus at the end of the day, if you don’t have diversity within your own employee base, you’re missing a minimum of 50% of the organisation, or your communities, or your customer base, so, you’re leaving money on the table.

And so, that ties back to the whole performance orientation, so the way we’ve delivered diversity inclusion is around that, it is a business imperative in order for us to compete on a global perspective, in order for us to acquire customers, and improve our profitability, we need to get this right. And diversity is beyond gender. I know we still have a lot of work to do on the gender frame, but diversity is ensuring that we have diversity of thought, diversity of background, education, and we always talk about diversity, but the most important element is the inclusion part.

And so, it’s easy to get the diversity right, the inclusion is the harder part, and that’s giving people a voice, and making sure that their voice is heard, and taking their ideas into consideration. And I think there’s a lot more work to be done on that front too.

Julia: Tanya let me bring you in then.

Tanya: Yes, I want to come back to the performance piece, because I think so many organisations are trying to figure out whether there is a linkage between diversity, and performance, even though there’s reams of data out there, there are many organisations who still don’t buy it, and it is a rat hole to go down there. Why? Because the organisations that have already embraced this, and are leading with it, and are grabbing talent everywhere, will leave these other ones in the dust. So, I would suggest to all organisations that haven’t yet embraced this, frankly, forget the why, because the why is proven. Move on to the how. Just skip forward, because you’ve lost a lot of time struggling with your definition of why.

Julia: And, this is a really important point, so those organisations that perhaps haven’t fully embraced … I’m a slightly cynical marketeer, so whilst everyone is focusing on D&I, and the importance of that, and throwing lots of money at hiring people with D&I, and saying, “we’re very committed to D&I”, are the numbers already changing? I’m really interested to explore what are the barriers to fully embracing, and having a fully diverse employee base? What do you see, Suzan, what are the major barriers that stop organisations from becoming fully diverse and inclusive?

Suzan: I think when you look for a job, you seek a job, you base it on the talent that you have, what you’re going to be skilled at, and where you’re going to make the impact. The opportunities that exist within the organisation from that point on are a function of what the organisation is going to allow you to be able to experience. And sometimes, it’s hard if you are in a position where you are not with the customer facing folks, or you’re not the one making the presentation, and you simply don’t have … You don’t actually have a voice in what it is that you do, because your job is just not a voice required job.

Companies need to take initiatives in order to be able to give that voice to employees, and that can be through very informal means of doing it, getting people who would otherwise never make a presentation to actually do that in front of their peers, and that works both ways, a voice for them in order to be able to do something different, and to showcase a talent that otherwise may not be known, but also for management, and their peers to say, “Wow, where did that person come from?”

Julia: Rania, I mean, you were talking about that middle management layer, and thinking about how do you … And, I think you talked about Ignite, I think it was one of your initiatives around that. How do you help middle managers overcome the fear of diversity?

Rania: I mean, there are formal programs and sponsorships and so on, but at the end of the day, I truly believe that we need more role models for people to say, “I can aspire to reach that new height.” And I think organisations need to take chances. They need to promote women sooner, and by role modeling, let’s also unleash that middle management to say, “You know what? That could be me someday. I could strive to do that.” There’s also the discussion I think I mentioned about unconscious bias.

My concern is that we all have unconscious biases based on our backgrounds, or education, or religion, a whole bunch of things.and because we’ve become so politically correct, to be honest, I think, we’ve stopped having open conversations about what our true biases are, and I think that is a barrier. We need to have that freedom both for men talking and sharing their insights with us, and without us being defensive about it and trying to change their perspectives on how they can see things from our side.

So, I think there’s a number of barriers, but I truly believe that, that is one of the key barriers. We need to have more open and honest conversations, so that we can have an opportunity to educate both sides in terms of here’s our perspective, and here’s how you see things, because there’s truth on both sides.

Julia: Absolutely, and Tanya the advice that you give organisations, does that resonate with you, and other barriers that you come across when you try help people navigate?

Tanya: Yes, so I would echo Rania’s comments. I think that we are, in this time, living in fear, and I think one of the biggest fears the world over is resource scarcity. Now, for some that may be a scarcity of water, it may be a scarcity of food, it may be a scarcity of income. All of these things are impacting the world, but as it relates to diversity and inclusion, it’s often a scarcity of jobs, and so, this can often come across as a zero sum game. If I win, then you lose, full stop. Fear is a big, big factor in what is inhibiting us from moving forward, and then, there’re are two others which are really related to fear.

One is unconscious bias as Rania has talked about, and we all have that, right? We all have that, and our ability to actually build the skills to communicate across difference is critical, so we spend a lot of time at that with companies training that into the organisation, but there is also the conscious bias, so we can’t forget that racism, and sexism, and many of the isms still are very prevalent in our society, we have to be very careful not to put everything in the unconscious bias bucket, because it makes us feel comfortable.

There is still a lot of conscious bias that exists out there, there’s a wonderful quote, I guess wonderful is the wrong word, but there is a memorable quote out there, and I don’t know who first said it, but it goes like this, “For those accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” And, when we think about that, whether we think about it along gender lines, or racial lines, ethnic lines, physical ability, sexual orientation, they have that, that notion that applies to all of us. It’s difficult to give up your privileged seat for someone else, and so, change is hard. It’s very, very, very hard, and I’ll stop talking now.

Julia: Well, one of the things that I also think about, is how do organisations give permission to middle managers who have been arguably hired in a certain way, trained in a certain way, lead in a certain way, measured in a certain way, paid in a certain way. How do they provide the support around them in order to take those risks that also, that would leave them, or leads them to giving up that seat to allow somebody else into it? And, I’m very interested in some of those things. Suzan, let me bring you in now.

Suzan: I would say that as a leader, as a manager, you need to go rogue. I think part of it is to say, “Okay, there’s corporate guidance, and there are things that you have to work within.” Your staff are being measured, the performance measurements are based on what the desired outputs are, and those are tied to revenue objectives, and those different things depend on whether you’re a public or private company, but there are opportunities. I think that we, as women, have to take, to say, “Okay, what can I do differently within my organisation that’s not going to disrupt the achievement of objectives nor disrupt the individual’s achievement of their personal performance objectives, but is complimentary and might allow them to shine in a completely different way?”

Because you’re tasking them with something that is not part of their day to day job, but that might allow them to shine in a way that will be pivotal, a trigger for them, a pivotal moment to say, “Hey, wait, this is it, I’m now in a programmer job, but really I’m kind of grooving on this project stuff. I like the innovation, I like the dynamism.” Or others who are just, seem to be the quiet, timid individuals who have just such massive passion, and interests in certain topics that when given the opportunity to speak to them, you suddenly realize that these people can present, and that’s fabulous!

So, I’ve done certain things within the organisation, creating my own invitation to all women within Ingenico, to join the mentorship group, and to say it’s diverse is incredible. There are numerous nationalities. Every single department is represented. There’s a 40 year age difference from the youngest to the oldest. It’s so diverse. I’ve called it Spice Girls, and I’ve got a few of them here in the back, and part of what that process is, is hearing what it is that they see as challenges within the organisation, what it is that they want to do, and understanding that what they got hired to do today is something that they’re doing on a path to other things, and that, I hope as their manager, that I’m able to help them in that journey within Ingenico, but beyond that as well, through what will be their long career.

Julia: I’m interested in taking that a bit further in terms of, because part of that is about overcoming the barriers to change in terms of just look at the organisation, and also having empathy for the fact that organisations have many, many different cultural, and age is very interesting actually in the discussion about diversity, what happens when we all hit 50? You know, were we going to fall off a cliff!?

Let’s take it a bit further on into accelerating factors. What’s going to accelerate change, and Rania, I’d like to bring you in at this point, just think about, you know, within your organisation, because if we continue on this journey, it could be another generation, or two before we get to complete equality, which arguably is far too slow, and I’m really interested to talk to all of our guests about where the leapfrog, or the accelerating opportunities?

Rania: I guess coming from a financial institution, and having spent my entire career in one, I’m big on what doesn’t get measured, doesn’t happen, and so, we need hard metrics, and you need to hold people accountable, so it can’t be just a lot of talk. If you’re looking at balancing financial results versus, hitting your numbers on making sure your workforce is diverse, we have to hold people accountable. Otherwise, things aren’t going to change. That’s my personal opinion, and so, I think holding people accountable is absolutely critical. Creating opportunities, and again, not just for gender, but all, for all diverse people, because I truly believe barriers are there for everybody.

We’re all individuals, and we all have different barriers, so ensuring that people are trained, given opportunities, stretch opportunities. I would … I always recommend take risks, go where there’s growth opportunities, where there’s going to be funding, go into a P&L role where there’s going to be a lot of support, there’s going to be lots of eyes. With high risk comes high rewards, and that’s advice I would give whether you’re a man, you’re a woman, you’re young, you’re old, go where there’s a lot of opportunity.

But, at the end of the day, if you don’t measure it, and you don’t hold people accountable, I don’t think we can accelerate. I mean, there are other things you can do from an HR perspective, and I think we’re doing it, where, you know, what it’s making sure that from a gender bias perspective, your resumes, you can’t tell if it’s a man or a woman, but that’s just really getting them in through the door, but it’s how do you grow them, and retain them, and develop them within your organisation? So, we need to hold our leaders accountable.

Julia: I think you’ve touched on the recruitment process, and some of the processes around that. I hear a lot of people just talk about unfortunately, we’re getting the same, we’re just fishing in the same pool, and so, when you look at the industry, it just goes, it’s the same to say whether that’s, whichever bit of diversity that is, particularly if it is around gender, is it just the same people moving around? How do we reach a bit further, and accelerate that change even further? I’d be very interested in your views there, Tanya.

Tanya: Yeah, someone said to me not long ago, “If you want to hire women, hire women.”  I do you think people over complicated this problem a little bit.

Suzan: That’s right, frankly.

Julia: I think we’re completely overthinking the problem.

Suzan: I totally agree.

Tanya Biesen: So, and listen, that would be true from the mining sector, through the technology sector, through the banking sector, through every sector you can think of. Now, of course, they each have their own individual characteristics, and challenges, and so on, so I think what organisations need to do is they need to spread their networks. They need to think more creatively about what the must haves, and the nice to haves are in the roles for which they are recruiting, and that will allow them to think more creatively about skill sets that they can bring into the organisation and where they may find those skill sets.

They also need to start working with their pipelines, whether those are universities, or technical schools, or even down into the high school level, to ensure that they’re starting to socialize their career pathways as places where people would want to work, as a place where an indigenous person would want to work, or a woman of colour would want to work, or what have you, or a person with a disability could work, and feel very embraced.

So, that whole process needs to happen, and then you can’t have nasty stories come out in the news that reflect a completely different culture. So, to Rania’s point, if your culture is not inclusive, that’s going to get out, right? So, do the hard work inside first. Get that as right as you can, and parallel pro’s, you’re networking, because that’s the only thing way we’re going to build this up.

Julia: Suzan, so in terms of, I really liked the, what you were saying there earlier about how spending time with your teams, and think about where people begin their careers, to where they end their careers? We had a very interesting discussion this morning about how a lot of these skills didn’t exist, or these jobs didn’t exist five years ago, and what they’re going to look like in a few years, hence, when you look at your organisation, and think about, you might’ve come in, in one particular role, and then you can move into another, take this a little bit further into that in terms of how do you assess who’s going to be fit for the organisation tomorrow? And, who’s going to be your shining role models to inspire others as you go forward?

Suzan: I try to create a lot of stress with my executive management team by looking at the youngest person on staff who’s sitting here, and saying she’ll get my job one day, and I say that, and I say it sincerely, because who’s to say she won’t? I was that person, and someone may have said that to me in passing at the time, and I thought, “Oh, wow, but, maybe that’s me.”

I think what defines your career path, or what has traditionally been the career path, go through the grind, go this step, this step, this step, I think that changes now. It can be very different, and you can leap, and you can jump, and you can do different things you’re interested in it, if you’re sponsored properly, if you’re given the opportunity, and it’s got to go both ways. I think the organisation needs to encourage the ability for people to show the talent that may not be reflected in their day to day, but by the same token, ladies you gotta get out there, and show somebody something that you can do that’s very different.

We do lunch and learn programs. Most companies have them. I’ve deliberately asked those that are the usual suspects who will do the lunch and learns to stop talking, and to let everybody else. I’ve opened it to the entire organisation. If you’re passionate about something, and you want to share it with the organisation, you think it’s going to have enough appeal to attract enough people, do it. I’m mind blown by the individuals that are getting up, and presenting. The quietest person who I wouldn’t have even recognised their voice stands up, and does a great pitch with humour, handouts, and we’re all completely engaged.

Well, my impression of that individual as a senior person on staff has completely changed, because I got to see that person in a completely different light, and that person didn’t have to do that. It doesn’t change anything with their job, but I have to believe that, that individual’s self esteem must have gone up as well as the impact that, that must have across the whole group to say, “Hey, maybe I want to jump on. I want to do something like that.”

Julia: So, we’re going to move into the last few minutes of the podcast. It’s amazing how time flies by. I’m really interested in what you’re optimistic about, particularly as we sit here, and inspire people in the room. There must be a good 200, 300 people here, which is extraordinary, and also, with my, I guess I’ll call to action to you about how you can go forth, and inspire others as well. Let me ask each of you, what do you, so let me start with you Suzan, what are you optimistic about?

Suzan: That a woman that is empowered regardless of her age, and what she’s doing can do something meaningful, and have an impact if she’s empowered, and it’s on us to empower.

Julia: I guess, Tanya?

Tanya: I’m an inherent optimist, so I’m optimistic that we are seeing more change at a slightly more rapid pace than we have seen, let’s say in the last 10 years. Unfortunately, that is riding on the back of some things like the rise of The Me Too Movement, which is not an optimistic topic, but because organisations, regulators, investors, and governments in many countries are now coming together, and acting in a more coordinated way, I am optimistic that we are going to see more change. Cautiously optimistic.

Julia: Great, wonderful and finally, Rania?

Rania: And so, I would say that it’s great that we’re at The Women in Payments, because not only is payments an exciting place to be, but I actually think it’s an exciting time for women. I think The Me Too Movement right now, the regulators, there’s a momentum that’s happening, and this is really our time to shine, and so, I think we really need to grab that opportunity, and run with it. I have a son and daughter at home, and I keep telling my daughter, “This is your chance.” This is our chance collectively, and I think just being in this room, you can just feel the energy, and so, I honestly think this is our time. This is our time.

Julia: Perfect, that’s a perfect place to leave. It’s been the most fascinating discussion. Thank you very much, and as always, we could have talked for so much longer, however, sadly, we’re just out of time. Audience, members here at The Women in Payments Symposium here in Toronto, Canada, please join me in thanking our guests today, Suzan Denoncourt, Tanya van Biesen, and Rania Llewellyn. Thank you very much.

Kieron: This episode of DiverCity Podcast was recorded live at The Women in Payments Symposium in Toronto, Canada, on the 27th of September 2018. Thanks to the event organisers, and the tech team for enabling the recording. Final mixing and production was done me, Kieron Yates, on behalf of Julia Streets Productions. You can find all previous episodes of DiverCity Podcast on our website, www.divercitypodcast.com. We can also be found on iTunes, Stitcher, and BrightTALK. DiverCity Podcast is now a syndicated radio show on The Women’s Radio Station. Thanks for listening.