Series Two, Episode Ten: Driving D&I on the Investment Floor

Julia: Hello, my name is Julia Streets and welcome to DiverCity Podcast, talking about diversity and inclusion in financial services. In each episode we seek to shine a light on successful progress, call out areas requiring further focus and offer practical ideas to help drive change. Today we welcome two senior industry executives as we examine the subject of diversity and inclusion in investment management.

Our first guest is Bev Shah. Bev is the founder and CEO of City Hive, the only professional network dedicated to uniting, supporting and championing women at all levels of asset and investment management. Bev’s career has included a true 360-degree view of the industry, drawing on experience from working as an investment platform provider and asset manager and private client investment manager. Bev, thank you for joining us.

Bev: Hello.

Julia: Our second guest is Justin Onuekwusi. Justin is a fund manager in multi-asset funds team at Legal and General Investment Management or LGIM, leading on the senior team’s multi-asset strategy. His career has included a tenure with Aviva Investors, Merrill Lynch and Aon Consulting, and he is well regarded for his capabilities in strategic and dynamic asset allocation and multi-asset portfolio construction.

Equally, he is a champion for diversity and inclusion on the investment floor for the group and serves as an advisor on City Hive’s board.

Justin: Hello.

Julia: Wonderful. It’s great to have you both here and as always on the top of each show, we invite each of you to spend a minute talking about the big initiatives you’re focused on the moment. Bev, let me start with you, what are you working on?

Bev: So City Hive, as you described, is one of the only networks that supports women in the industry. We are totally independent, and I’m a big believer in action with impact over just rhetoric. Although we spend a lot of time campaigning and talking about the issues, because being independent I can say the things that no one else can, we also have a lot of initiatives that we’re working on, things like a mentoring scheme, that are just for people who are on the investment floor because that’s where there’s a real issue with lack of diversity.

We’re working on a five week program that will help retain women who’ve come back to work or are just in the middle of their career.

Julia: Great, wonderful. Thank you Bev. There’s a lot in there we’re going to unpick for sure. Justin, let me turn to you, what are you up to at the moment?

Justin: Well I’ll struggle to compete with that, but I’m a multi-asset manager at LGIM as we mentioned. So my day-to-day job is actually managing money and investing in markets, but on the side I drive the diversity and inclusion initiatives for the investment floor. And the idea is to really change the way we think about investments by having more diverse thinking and driving diversity initiatives right across the investment floor.

I also sit on the diversity and inclusion for L&G Group, as you mentioned, looking at not just the investment business, but the whole of the business and where we can drive diversity and inclusion initiatives there. And then I sit on the diversity projects, the Ethnicity Workstream, where we focus on really trying to look at the under-representation of, particularly black, leaders in the investment industry and what the reasons and how we can look to change that.

And finally as you mentioned, I also advise on the board at City Hive. So I do help Bev now and again, but clearly she’s the key driving force there.

Julia: So Bev, let me start with you. I mean, with over 15 years in the city, where have you seen the greatest progress in D&I in asset management?

Bev: We’re just at the awakening. Two years ago, if you’d mentioned the words diversity and inclusion in the industry, I don’t think people would really know what you’re talking about. In fact, I’m pretty sure if Justin and I talked about diversity two years ago, it would have been about our portfolios and the asset allocation via geography and currency and various other things.

It certainly wouldn’t have been about the people, but we seem to be in this almost perfect storm in the press and globally with things that have been happening over the last few years, which means that the industry can no longer ignore it. So for example, I launched City Hive at the tail end of 2016 after I was made redundant from my job after returning from maternity leave, and I just thought, you know I really want to see some change in the industry. I’m just sick of hearing anecdotally about so and so woman being made redundant after coming back from maternity leave, and all that talent is being wasted.

So at the same time as the diversity project launched, and I remember reading about it, they launched on the same day that Trump was elected, so the news around it was buried. But again, no one really talked about diversity then. And then 2017 happened, and you had again, things like the Weinstein stuff coming out of Hollywood, the #MeToo movement. And equality all of a sudden was back on the agenda with the press and with everyone. And that’s why the industry’s had to wake up.

So of course we have the business case of why having women on boards and having more women and diversity in a business, but for the asset and investment management industry, it’s even more important because it’s down to your investments. If you don’t have diverse thinking and cognitive thinking in your investments, it impacts everybody. Not just the industry. Not just equality. Mrs. Miggins, her pension. Joe Taxi Driver, his pension. Would you rather have more robust team looking at your investments than a team of people who think the same?

Julia: I think this is really important when it comes down to the commercial intention, the commercial benefits. Justin from your perspective as well, obviously this is something you think about very keenly. Does it make an impact? It’s great to hear, but does it actually make an impact on investment returns?

Justin: Yes, so I do think we’ve got, as an industry, we’ve got a bit of a challenge there. Just as Bev said, I would say that over the last 12 months we’ve seen real momentum from the investment industry. I can’t talk about other industries, but the investment industry has really taken this by the scruff of the neck and said, “Okay. When we look at what we look like, what look at representative diversity, this is not what we want to look like in the future.” And I think that that is quite important because 12 months ago, we weren’t talking about this as much as we are today, and maybe it’s driven by businesses like City Hive, like Diversity Projects, et cetera, et cetera.

But when it comes to thinking, okay does this actually improve investment returns? I’ll flip the question a little bit. Does representative diversity or representational diversity actually lead to cognitive diversity? We’re a very numbers-driven industry, so we need to see that the evidence actually exists. Now we know that cognitive diversity leads to better investment decisions, but when it comes to the actual evidence to say, does representative diversity lead to cognitive diversity, I think we’re still trying to crunch the numbers. Because as you know, businesses evolve. Teams evolve.

So it’s actually very difficult right now to say there’s clear evidence that that is the case.

Julia: And just for the benefit of the listeners, what are you talking about cognitive diversity? Can you just deconstruct that a little bit in terms of what do you mean by that?

Bev: It’s the way people think. The city is predominantly made up of white, middle class men. So the argument is, if you come from a different background whether it’s gender, ethnicity, socioeconomic, you might have a different viewpoint because you’ve therefore come from a different band of experiences.

So that’s what it’s about, but what we do in the investment industry, although it’s numbers driven, it’s also very subjective. Those teams are coming up with their own processes, and what you’re looking for is … even when you’re adding people to your team, it’s an iterative process. It’s not something that you can sit down and give someone a test or say “oh she ticks a box” or “he ticks a box because of what their background is”, that they’re going to fit in.

I would almost argue that if you’re hiring someone and you feel like they’re not going to fit in your team and they aren’t going to fit your company culture, they might be the ideal person for you because what you’re looking for is … An example of this is, so back in 2018 we had the big credit crunch crash, and after this Christine Lagarde said, “What happens if Lehman Brothers had been Lehman Sisters?” Her point was that we ended up with a market crash because you had group think. If you have someone there who’s a bit of a naysayer or can point something out that you aren’t all thinking the same, that’s what you want. You want someone there who can catch that element that you haven’t thought of. Plug that hole.

I’m an Indian, dyslexic, dyspraxic woman, daughter of a refugee. So I’ve got lots in terms of box ticking, but I would say my biggest diverse thinking is that I’m dyslexic and dyspraxic. When the rest of my time think with one side of their brain, I think with the other side.

Justin: I think that’s really important, that diversity isn’t necessarily about box ticking, and that’s where actually just having representative diversity doesn’t necessarily lead to cognitive diversity. You need to think about the shape of your team and how it looks. So what diversity really means to me is to get the best people into the right jobs.

I think that’s what diversity really means, and for whatever reason, structural reasons, biases, the list can go on and on and on, I don’t think the investment industry has necessarily done that historically.

Julia: And do you think it’s waking up to it? We talk about this wave of change that’s happening at the moment. Do you think that heads of businesses are seeing that if we want to compete, and we want to drive returns, we must change this?

Bev: Yes.

Justin: I think they are. I think right at the top level they are. So the C-suites, and probably even the level below that, are now recognising that actually this is something that they have to do. And it’s not only from an investment return perspective, it’s what clients are demanding. Now when you get RFP’s, when you’re looking to pitch for new business, clients are actually saying “Let me see what your team looks like. Let me see the gender breakdown of your team, and let me see the ethnicity breakdown of your team”. So it’s leading to business wins on whether you can actually win business.

So I think that is leading to C-suites and the level down to really recognise that. I think the big challenge is the level below that. The people who are actually line managed, who are managed on a day-to-day basis, which we’ll probably talk about a bit more later on.

Bev: Yeah, and the middle management as you’d like to call it, and I don’t think it’s a cynical reason, there is obviously unconscious bias going on. But if you’re doing the day job, and you’ve been working in the industry for I don’t know, 15, 20 years, you’ve heard the new values from your company come down every three years. I mean, we’ve all been there, right? The c-suite will send down this years corporate values are integrity and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then three years later, there’s a new management team, and there’s something else. So you’ve got that, I suppose, cynicism. You’ve got to do the day job of investing or selling or whatever you’re doing. You don’t have the time or the idealism to say, “I’m going to take this one on board now.” And I think diversity is in the early stages of being talked about in the industry.

I think there are a lot of people who are scared that they’re going to end up losing their job because they don’t tick a box, but Justin’s absolutely right when he says it’s about the right person getting the job. But up until now, not everyone was given the opportunity to apply for the job. That’s the problem. If we change the way job specs are worded, if we change the way the recruitment process is done, which means that everyone, women, people from different ethnic backgrounds, people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, feel like they can apply for the job. Not just your CFA, Oxbridge, private-educated candidate. Then you’ve got more of a change of getting the best person for the job.

Julia: When we think about that middle management layer, are there initiatives that you’re seeing immerge to help those middle management executives think and behave differently? You mentioned about job descriptions and the way in which the recruitment process is being driven. Clearly for that we look to HR to help guide those middle management layers, but I think part of it is also about how you structure teams and how you recruit people and how you set objectives, et cetera. Are you seeing some shift in delivery at that level?

Justin: I think we are, but you just have to recognise that it started with the C-suite, it’s trickled down to the layer below. It just takes time to trickle down to line management overall. Secondly, businesses aren’t necessarily set up … they haven’t been setup historically to look at these things. So they don’t have necessarily the resource to write new job specs, to look at different recruiting consultants, but I think one thing that is clear though, that everybody seems to recognise within the industry, is that the recruitment process, the way it used to work, doesn’t necessarily generate diversity.

And the third point I want to mention, is around what we haven’t really spoken about yet. It’s not just about diversity in terms of getting the right people in. It’s also the inclusion side. So retaining, developing and nurturing talent that you have, because what you tend to find at the those lower levels, actually you get quite a diverse mix of people. But as people progress through the company, underrepresented groups simply just don’t seem to filter through to the top levels.

Julia: And clearly the work you’re doing with City Hive, you’re mostly focused on helping women returners, et cetera. And you talk about some of the initiatives you’re driving out and a program throughout the year. Does that address that?

Bev: Yes. So I don’t come from a HR or recruitment or professional development background, but my investment background means I’ve spent my career putting processes together and also, assessing other people’s processes. So I went back to the drawing board, and I thought about what would have helped me, because I’ve been through this journey. What would have helped the people I know, the women I know in this industry?

I thought about the one time in my life where I built a network I needed very quickly, which was when I had kids. I went to the NCT, which for those of you who don’t have kids, it’s like a five, six week programme where you meet people who are basically in the same boat as you – they’re all pregnant. You might not like all of them, but you’re all there together and you end up building connections with people you need at that time, and because you’ve seen them on a regular basis, you have that connection. They support you along your journey after you’ve had kids and beyond, and I’m still friends with lots of my NCT friends.

So I’ve put together a program which is five weeks long, and it’s cross company, because I think the key here is … to be as open as you can with a support network. If you all work together, there is still the politics of working in the same firm. It’s cross-company, and over those five weeks, you will have the professional development you need, but you’ll also build a support network and hopefully walk away from that with the connections and the support you need.

So that’s one thing I’m working on. There’s also I think the accessibility. I didn’t even think about professional development when I was working, but again, now I know about it and I think, God why didn’t I? But again, when you look at life coaching and that sort of thing, it’s so expensive. So we’re trying to make it as accessible as possible for people. And there’s no reason why companies can’t, for instance, let someone expense that. You need to look at, what do you let your employees do? Do they always have to give up their time in the evening to go to something like this? Or should they actually embrace the fact that building networks is part of their job, and therefore, they should be allowed to do it in the day?

If you’ve got that retention bit, the mothers that we see disappear … I have to go and do my second job when I leave work, but they can’t. So why can’t they leave work at 3:00 to go to do some networking on a course?

Julia: That’s almost the preserve of the senior management layer, which gives you the privilege of going to all of these networking events.

Bev: And the workplace does need to change. Flexible working is so important. It’s talked about lots to do with diversity, because the next generation, whatever their background, they have a different desire. The millennials, whatever you want to call them, whoever is the next generation after that, they have different desires and different wants. They aren’t coming into a city which Justin and I came into which was big bonuses and all the rest of it.

If I was graduating now, I would be looking at the tech industry. I would be looking to go and work for something, maybe not Facebook today after this year, but certainly that industry which seems more dynamic, that appears to care about their employees. Not the scandal ridden city of rich, corrupt bankers because the problem again we have in our industry is to do with image. No one knows who asset management is. We’re asset investment management wealth fund managers, but also there is no positive pop culture about us. There’s no positive role models out there that people can talk about, you know.

If you are a 16 year old, and you’re walking into a careers fair at school, you know what a lawyer does. You might not end up doing criminal law because you’ve seen it on TV. You might just end up being a solicitor filling out forms, but you know what a lawyer does and your family does, so therefore, if you go down that route, you’ll go and seek out that stall. I’m sorry, but no one knows what an investment manager does. They’re not going to go and hunt out the LGIM stall at the careers fair, and when you do look at popular culture, you have corruption, you have Billions, which drives me potty because the only way that guy can make money is by insider trading, which is not a reality. Or you have McMafia that was on the BBC this year which, again, is not a reality, and it doesn’t paint the city in a very good light.

And then you have real things like the President’s Club, which again, isn’t the city, but is branded the city. This is not the investment industry, but it’s branded as.

Julia: I think this is really important when it comes to, as you say, younger talent coming through, and they face many choices and jobs that didn’t necessarily exist five years ago. But also in terms of … I speak at a lot of conferences. My world is in technology, financial services technology, and some of that obviously comes into the world of investment management as well.

If you’re looking for new skills, you need to have people who are very tech-savvy. They understand data science, cyber security, if you ever want to go down that route, and they are not people who look at this industry and think, I’m just echoing your point, that’s not where I want to work necessarily. And yet, we need them so very much. Are you seeing seen evidence where the investment management industry is getting that point? Do we see examples where people are going, “We need to present ourselves in a very, very different way.” Or is that a step too far on this journey of awareness, change and embracing change? Justin?

Justin: Yeah. I think they want to. I think the biggest challenge is, if you look at the majority of the client base at the moment, there’s still quite a big chunk of investment managers’ client base is DB pension schemes, which are typically managed by trustees who tend to be-

Julia: And DB being Defined Benefit.

Justin: Sorry, Defined Benefit, yes, which tend to be managed by trustees. So at the same time, while you’re trying to appease that type of clientele, that type of client, you’re also trying to go direct to consumers, direct to millennials. So actually asset managers have got really quite a bit of a challenge to appease two types of markets. To try and be big, boring conservative on the DB side to say we can manage your assets, and also try to be more dynamic to appeal to the millenials.

Julia: And it is suffice it to say that’s institutional versus retail? Is that the line? Because actually as you were saying Bev about, is it wealth management, fund management, investment management. There are lots of nuances.

Justin: It’s actually more than that because within retail then you’ve got financial advisors, the average age of financial advisors is 55. But then the client base is falling in age. I think it’s a challenge for asset managers to decide what type of asset manager they want to be, but what I’ve seen over the last 12 months is that asset managers are really looking to embrace this and say actually, we do need to change. What that change looks like I think is still up for debate.

I think the last point is just relaying back to Bev, and actually attracting graduates into the industry. Because asset management is quite specialised and is quite niche, and typically the people that come into asset management industry year after year, aren’t necessarily the same amount of people that banks would hire, that other financial services companies would hire. Asset managers haven’t been visible at the universities. If they have been visible at universities, it’s only been at a small number of universities.

So I do think the asset management industry is waking up to that and saying that “If we want a diverse workforce, we do need to appeal to a wider range of entry-level students”.

Bev: One thing on that is that even the government, through their Women and Finance Charter, which is a pledge that companies in the city for a certain number of senior women by a certain date. So it’s a pledge. They have also committed, I think via, not the Women and Finance thing. It might be the Investment Management Select Committee to back some Centres of Excellence for Asset Management around the country.

Now I don’t know what these are going to look like. I think they’re to do with building out the asset management image within universities, and I think that might have something to do with Brexit, because a lot of people don’t know that asset management is actually the biggest revenue generator for HMRC. We are an industry that isn’t going to be as impacted as banking. So we will be the biggest tax payer, and therefore, the government wants to ensure that we look after ourselves.

But the other thing is, where asset managers don’t know what they want to look like because of the different client bases that they have, at the end of the day you can’t go wrong if you just try and be the best that you can be. At the end of the day the outcome will speak for itself.

The other argument I was going to make is that diversity and cognitive diversity are obviously difficult to measure. But also, if you do hire women or people from ethnic or socioeconomic backgrounds, it doesn’t mean they’re going to be better. I think it’s more about them just having a seat at the table. I think that’s the key. At the moment, everything’s being positioned around diversity adding value, but I personally think I’ve just got every right to as crap as my white male colleague at the end of the day. Why should I have to perform better in order to have my seat at the table?

That’s the other element you’ve got there. You’ve got the equality argument going alongside the business case. You’ve got both there.

Julia: Let’s take a pause there, and turn to Cynthia Akinsanya and Robert Pinto-Fernandes, who have been scouring the industry for supporting research.

Robert: In 2015, Alexander Mann Solutions, the world’s leading provider of talent acquisition and management services, and TradingHub, a global financial information services company, published a study looking at the behavioural differences in trading abilities of around 350 male and female entry-level graduates.

Cynthia: The graduates took part in a trading simulation over a period of four weeks. The results were as follows: The female traders took 30% less risk. Male traders placed 27% more trades, which increased the onward cost of brokerage and transaction fees, and male traders were two and half times more likely to break the rules, demonstrating a greater risk of chance of recklessness.

Robert: This study highlights a different attributes and skillsets that men and women can bring to the trading floor.

Cynthia: Cognitive diversity is the inclusion of people with different styles of problem solving. They can offer unique perspectives because they think differently. Unlike demographic diversity, which focuses of achieving a mixture of statistical characteristics such as gender and age, cognitive diversity focuses on combining different approaches to intellectual activities like making associations or drawing conclusions.

Robert: According to the 2018 Management Agenda, published by charitable trust Roffey Park, 37% of the organisations surveyed said they were not effective at recruiting for cognitive diversity.

Julia: Thank you Cynthia and Robert, and links to the references and research can be found on our website, DiverCityPodcast.com. You can also sign up for early notifications of future episodes, and please do follow us on Twitter @divercitypod. And you can find us on all good podcast channels. If you’ve enjoyed the show, we’d really appreciate a rating. It all helps promote the episodes.

So one thing we are very keen to talk about on the podcast, in the concept of diversity and inclusion, is the question of race and ethnicity. And as you say Bev, it’s a predominantly white, middle aged, male environment. If we’re going to drive change and ethnicity, I’m very keen to understand what will drive that change. Are people comfortable talking about race in the industry?

Bev: No. Socially, it’s okay to be a misogynist or a sexist. You can talk about it openly and debate it, but it’s not socially acceptable, of course, to be a racist. And therefore, it’s very difficult for someone who isn’t ethnic to talk about it for fear of using the wrong language. That’s where the problem is. As an industry that is predominantly white, how do you then tackle that challenge?

So thankfully you have role models like Justin and I, who can say the things that the other people feel uncomfortable to say, but also can shine a light on how to change things. My own personal experience with race is that my real name is actually Bhavini, and when I left university back at the tail end of the millennium, I sent out the same CV’s with Bev Shah on one set, and Bhavini Shah on the other. Same information. Everything the same. Same cover letters. Bhavini Shah got no responses, not even a no thank you. Bev Shah got responses, job interviews, even no thank you letters.

Since I’ve joined the city, I’ve always been known as Bev Shah. When people have asked me for my name, and I’m proud to be called Bhavini. I’ll say it’s no, Bev, not short for Beverly. It’s Bhavini. I’ll have people say that’s like, “Oh, Bavinder.” They don’t seem to realise that’s actually very insulting. I’ve just told you what my name is, and you’re almost making fun. I’m sure Justin’s had similar experiences with his own name and pronunciation of it.

Julia: And Justin, insights into your experiences and what do you think would be the one or two things that would actually drive change?

Justin: So I think it’s really important that, we spoke about managers, and the level below senior management. I think it’s really important that they understand their biases. I think when you speak to managers – this has been the whole industry – they don’t necessarily recognise that one size of management doesn’t fit all. They think that they’ve got their style of management, and that applies to everybody. But they need to understand how to communicate and acknowledge different cultures and biases; and you have to manage your own biases.

I think we have to be honest as an industry and say “this isn’t easy”. It’s not easy for managers. One of the things that people often say about the industry is “we’ve got loads of nationalities, so ethnicity is captured by nationalities”. Actually, ethnicity is very different from nationality. I think experiences of different ethnicities is quite important as well. So we lump BAME altogether, but actually the black experience is very different from the Asian experience, et cetera, et cetera.

So I think it’s important to acknowledge that, and one of the things I’ve been doing over the last few months, sitting down with a lot of black people and asking, “What are the barriers to diversity and inclusion?” And I think this is really important because we, as senior role models, can turn around and say we know what the issues are, but actually you only really understand the issues when you start to speak to people about their issues and what the barriers that they’ve had are.

And just a few points have come up, and they resonate with me because growing up, I’ve seen some of these issues. For example, common themes I’ve been told “You’re lazy”. I’ve been told by parents “you have to work harder than your white counterparts”. I think as a manager, if you haven’t necessarily felt some of these things, it’s very difficult to be able to manage them. So I think when it comes to biases, it’s so important to recognise that biases work both ways. It’s not just the managers. It’s actually the people who are being managed that have biases as well.

This is where I think role models and mentors become more important. Because if you’ve experienced similar themes, then actually as a role model and mentor, by simply winning, by simply climbing that ladder, by simply becoming senior, encourages people to fight against those biases. And I think that is really important.

Julia: Well I have to say, I’m immensely impressed, and very positive and very hopeful. It feels like it’s the beginning of a journey in investment management, but to have two role models like yourselves out championing and changing the industry. Thank you both for taking so much time. I know you’re incredibly busy so I really appreciate it. Thank you Bev and thank you Justin.

Justin: Thank you.

Bev: Thank you.

Kieron: This episode of DiverCity Podcast was produced by me, Kieron Yates, on behalf of Julia Streets Productions. Thanks to Cynthia Akinsanya and Robert Pinto-Fernandes for their insights. You can find out more about the guests on this week’s show on our website, DiverCityPodcast.com. Whilst you are there, you can also sign up to our newsletter, for all our latest updates. To be sure of catching all our future podcasts, subscribe to our feed in iTunes, or your favourite podcast app, and if you’ve enjoyed this episode of DiverCity Podcast, remember to give us a rating or a review. It all helps promote the show to wider audience. Finally, our Twitter handle is @Divercitypod. Thanks for listening.